4thGordons Posted 24 January , 2008 Share Posted 24 January , 2008 Recent online purchase, Is this a Royal Scots Fusilier (Grenade badge, collars) in a kilt? or am I way off the mark here? Sporran Badge appears to be St Andrew and Saltire. If this is correct does this mean the individual is a piper or bandsman? or were certain battalions kilted? I have searched my 1911 Dress Regs and Barnes (Uniforms & History of Scottish regts) and drawn a blank. Thanks in advance, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 24 January , 2008 Share Posted 24 January , 2008 Chris, You are correct. It is the Royal Scots Fusiliers. I don't know much about uniforms, the wings on shoulders look like a bandsman's uniform but he has no musicians badge on his arm. Someone like Graham Stewart is probably your best bet there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 24 January , 2008 Share Posted 24 January , 2008 Chris, A photo of the glengarry and collar badges of the RSF for comparison. It is a very large badge. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2008 Thanks for the images/post Chris, One thing I found interesting/unusual is that although he has his scarlet doublet on - he also has puttees rather than dress gaiters. The clue might be that the back of the card is bilungual - Postcard/Carte Postale, so perhaps a special occasion/parade in France? The belt also looks to be a p14 belt rather than a buff dress belt or pipers belt.... so is this a cobbled together outfit or..... For the experts: What tartan would this kilt have been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob B Posted 24 January , 2008 Share Posted 24 January , 2008 I think we have a Royal Scots Fusilier Drummer from the Pipes and Drums and he would be wearing the Government tartan. Apparantly up till 1881 they raised strong objection to wearing Tartan but sucombed to the wearing of the Gov tartan they later adding a bluish line to it creating a special Scots Fusilier tartan worn by the Regiment till 1948 (p16 The Royal Highland Fusiliers Regimental standing orders) Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 24 January , 2008 Share Posted 24 January , 2008 Hi All, He isn't a Bandsman; he is a Piper. Drummers in the RSF looked like Fusiliers from a English Line Regiment, with the exception that they wore Government Tartan trews instead of those of a Line Regiment. He would also be wearing 'crown an inch' on his arms and wings, if he was a drummer Chris a great, but rare, picture of an RSF piper. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 January , 2008 Share Posted 25 January , 2008 Hi All, He isn't a Bandsman; he is a Piper. Drummers in the RSF looked like Fusiliers from a English Line Regiment, with the exception that they wore Government Tartan trews instead of those of a Line Regiment. He would also be wearing 'crown an inch' on his arms and wings, if he was a drummer Chris a great, but rare, picture of an RSF piper. Aye Tom McC Fantastic pic and very interesting. I did not realise that the P14 belt with snake buckle was worn with that dress. Also first time I have ever seen a RSF piper. Thanks for details Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 26 January , 2008 Share Posted 26 January , 2008 Been pondering over this one since getting back from Lancs earlier on today and now I think I've got to the bottom of it with the help of this Simkins print. It would appear that Pipers of the RSF didn't wear scarlet doublets after all, but did infact wear dark blue doublets with scarlet piping. This is what caught my eye, because I realised that he wasn't wearing scarlet at all and so have trawled all over to find for an illustration of an RSF piper. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 26 January , 2008 Share Posted 26 January , 2008 Graham, Dark Blue or Dark green doublets? The Simkin print seems to have green on the highlights of the doublet. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 26 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 26 January , 2008 Tom / Graham / All, Many thanks for the insights and apologies for the mis-steer with the scarlet ref. thanks, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 26 January , 2008 Share Posted 26 January , 2008 Chris, The print isn't very clear with the colouring and you may have noticed that the facing colours on the cuff and collar of both the officer and private are the same colour as the doublet of the piper. Being a 'Royal' Regiment the facing colour should be dark blue, which has been lost in the printing process and as such I believe that the pipers doublet, which uses the same hue in the process, is also dark blue with scarlet piping, but no scarlet facings. The dark or 'piper-green' doublet of which you speak was only introduced as No.1 Dress for Highland Regiments post 1947, while Lowland Regiments wore a dark blue doublet with Inverness skirts. The Cameronians continued their tradition of wearing Rifle green. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 26 January , 2008 Share Posted 26 January , 2008 Graham, Good points. Thank you for the clarification. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 January , 2008 Share Posted 26 January , 2008 and, of course, pipers did not have a special badge at that time. Can he play the pipes and manage a swagger stick at the same time? Beats chewing gum and scratching your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 26 January , 2008 Share Posted 26 January , 2008 "The dark or 'piper-green' doublet of which you speak was only introduced as No.1 Dress for Highland Regiments post 1947, while Lowland Regiments wore a dark blue doublet with Inverness skirts. The Cameronians continued their tradition of wearing Rifle green." Graham, Per the PVCN from 1907 through 1915 stipulates that in most cases for Scottish Regiments that Piper Serjeants were issued Tunics (doublets) of No.1 Dark Green cloth and pipers of No.2 Dark Green Cloth. Exceptions were made for SR. RSF and KOSB. Nowhere in the PVCN are Dark Blue or Blue tunics for pipers of Scottish units. Which to me indicates that in this period no pipers had Blue tunics (only valid from 1907 to 1915) The PVCN is fairly specific about who got what whether bandsman or piper and what type of Frock or Tunic they received. This arrangement of Green serge/cloth for Pipers is bourne out by the Standing Orders of the Seaforths, QOCH and BW (1st Bn). I don't have the orders of the RSF but all indications are they wore Green Tunics for the pipers. If they did not, then they did so extra regimentally and outside of WO clothing channels. (not unusual for Pipers since Pipes were bought by Regiments up until 1918 when pipes were taken on inventory by the WO.) Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 26 January , 2008 Share Posted 26 January , 2008 Joe, You are most definately correct and it appears that all pipers in Scots units apart from the Scots Guards up to the Great War did infact wear a 'dark green' doublet and so apologies to my GWF colleagues for leading them astray on this one. This comes from trying to define a colour from a print which doesn't give the best results. To add insult to injury I actually have 'Simpkins Soldiers Volume II' and although the RSF aren't covered it clearly states that dark green was infact the colour of pipers tunics. A very well humbled, Graham. PS, The later post WWII distinction between Highland & Lowland regiments seems to be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2008 Continued thanks. Could anyone confirm what the tartan was? 42nd (Govt) Tartan? I believe this was what the trews were. I have a note that in 1928 George V granted permission for pipers of the RSF to wear "ceremonial Erskine tartan" to mark the 250th anniversary of the regiment and that in 1948 the regiment was authorized to wear "Hunting Erskine" If anyone would like a high res scan of the image I'd be happy to send it - just PM me Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 27 January , 2008 Share Posted 27 January , 2008 Continued thanks. Could anyone confirm what the tartan was? 42nd (Govt) Tartan? I believe this was what the trews were. I have a note that in 1928 George V granted permission for pipers of the RSF to wear "ceremonial Erskine tartan" to mark the 250th anniversary of the regiment and that in 1948 the regiment was authorized to wear "Hunting Erskine" If anyone would like a high res scan of the image I'd be happy to send it - just PM me Chris Chris, Not sure about Ceremonial or Hunting Erskine, but the standard Erskine is a lowland tartan made up of broad red and green bands each centred by a doubled thin stripe in the other colour. In the tartan in the photo the lighter broad bands appear to have just a single thin strip in the centre. Black Watch on the other hand does have a thin single black stripe centred in the broad green band. The thin stripes in the dark blue band are more complicated! Difficult to know how either would come across in a monochrome photo! HTH. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 27 January , 2008 Share Posted 27 January , 2008 After a bit more digging it seems Hunting Erskine is is the same sett as the standard Erskine, but using green and black instead of green and red. It still has the thin stripe doubled. The "Ceremonial Erskine" from 1928, is also known as Red Erskine, and again it has the same sett, but using the colours red and black. It looks like the thin doubled stripes are slightly further apart, but I cannot find a thread count for the tartan to confirm that properly. In summary, all the Erskine tartans feature thin double stripes centred in the broaod bands, so it looks like the tartan in the photo is not Erskine. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 27 January , 2008 Share Posted 27 January , 2008 Chris, The RSF in the Great War wore No. 1 (42nd) Tartan (thick) which was a diffferent weight(same sett) than the No. 1 worn by the BW(RH) and A&SH. The Trews and Pipers Kilts were made of this sett. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 27 January , 2008 Share Posted 27 January , 2008 Graham, Given that there were stated exceptions to the SR, RSF, and KOSB. With the SR clearly stated that the Pipers wore Cloth Green Rifle Scottish instead of the dark green cloth. That leaves a bit of ambiguity for the RSF and KOSB. No way for these Pipers to get Blue Tunics through the WO so I would assume the use of Green but....I wish I had access to their records to see if they may have outfitted pipers in Blue tunics via Regimental funds. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2008 Thanks Joe. Much appreciated. (also Mark for the research on the later patterns) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 27 January , 2008 Share Posted 27 January , 2008 Joe, Perhaps an e.mail to the Museums of the units you have no information regarding pipers uniforms may help, as they usually hold copies of Standing Orders and may copy or transcribe the relevant sections to you. I've done the same myself in the past and had good responses. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 27 January , 2008 Share Posted 27 January , 2008 If the pipers were to be clothed unofficially, it might well be funded by the Officers' Mess rather than any regimental fund. In which case records, what records? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 27 January , 2008 Share Posted 27 January , 2008 Graham, I may just contact the Regiments. I usually don't study uniforming outside of SD, but I've done so much research into Scottish Uniforms lately I may close the loop and eliminate some ambiguity. Grumpy, Sometimes (key word) Reg't Standing Orders give clues. In the case of the Seaforths it specifically states that on home service Green tunics for full and acting Pipers would be drawn from WO stocks. In India no such stocks available for acting pipers so Green Tunics would be paid out of the Pipers Fund. Standing Orders are very hit and miss, some have an extreme wealth of detail and others are completely devoid of any use. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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