TF New Regt. Numbers

[Graham Stewart]

ACI 522 of ? March 1917.

[Graham Stewart]

ACI 698 of 28th April 1917.

[Graham Stewart]

ACI 1245 of 11th August 1917.

[Graham Stewart]

Sorry this is ACI 1499 of 31st July 1916, not 1917 as originally put.

[Graham Stewart]

ACI 1499 of 31st July 1916 continued. Too big for last post.

[Graham Stewart]

ACI 1497 of 31st July 1916 for the Artillery buffs among us. Please ignore 1917 pencil mark it's been amended.

Graham.

[KONDOA]

Really useful and interesting stuff Graham, many thanks for sharing it.

Perhaps we should start to compile/add to the TF numbering with the known New Army RGA/RFA battery numbering, perhaps a new post with Dick/Your info transferred across too. It is evident that aall the Hull batteries are in the number run preceding the TF numbering ie 300001, I wonder if this runs backwards further with more New Army batteries.

Roop

[Stebie9173]

I wonder if this runs backwards further with more New Army batteries.

It seems to be the case with the 279000s for example.

Number 4005 became 279005 (i.e. +275000)

Number 4195 became 279195

Number 4283 became 279283

The same pattern seems to apply between 275001 and 285000 (i.e. 1 to 10000 + 275000). Special Reserve prefix seems to occur a fair bit with these numbers...

Which were presumably in the same boat as the Hull Batteries. Or am I covering ground already discussed elswhere? If so, Sorry.

Steve.

[dycer]

I think we have to take all TF Numbers with a note of caution.

Graham(who I acknowledge is the expert in this field) and I have discussed my Uncle before with no satisfactory conclusion.

As a Member of the 1/8th Royal Scots he went to France in November 1914 with the Service Number 20.

He was killed in March 1918 in the same Battalion with a 6 Figure Number 325002.

If you read the 1/8th Royal Sots renumbering these two number tie in exactly.

He,however,has a third number and this is recorded on his War and Victory Medal i.e.4208.

I have no evidence that he returned to UK as a time expired Territorial or that he moved Battalion for a period(no suggestion that he was wounded or returned home ill,although I accept this is not conclusive).Equally I am aware that a draft of 1/8th joined the 16th Royal Scots in July 1916 but I have no evidence that my Uncle was a member of this draft or indeed he was ever drafted into any other Battalion.

I suppose it is one of the many mysteries of the War.

My only conclusion from this discussion Did they receive their pay on time.

I know, they were too busy and never had time to spend it.

George

[KONDOA]

It seems to be the case with the 279000s for example.

Number 4005 became 279005 (i.e. +275000)

Number 4195 became 279195

Number 4283 became 279283

That is the case Steve. I have started a specific thread to explore this further and to try and ID number ranges for New Army Batteries.

Roop

[jim_davies]

Graham,

Thanks for posting these. I think I'm going to have to re-read them a few times though!

Cheers,

Jim

[Bill Braham]

Ken,

I have a couple of examples from the infantry which sort of bare out what you say. Both men were cousins with the same name

L/Cpl W. Braham 534923 volunteered 1915, mobilised Feb 1917 into 15th London Battalion (Civil Service Rifles), posted June 1917 to 17th KRRC and again August 1918 to 12th London Battalion (The Rangers).

In and out of TF battalions but with a long stint in a New Army battalion between but without any change of number. I assume that this was because both 15th and 12th London Battalions had become associated with the KRRC in June(?) 1916 thus this was not considered to be changing regiment/corps. His medals and the Medal Index show him as being in the Civil Services Rifles even though he was only with the training battalion Feb - May 1917 and briefly with the 1st/15th for less than three weeks in 1917.

In contrast,

Pte W. Braham mustered into the West Yorks with the number 202264 and subsequently transferred to the 26th Bn (Tyneside Irish) Northumberland Fusiliers with the number 260034. Subsequently KIA April 25 1917.

Bill

[Ken Lees]

Thanks Bill,

I'm never 100% sure about these things but it's interesting to see the patterns emerging as the research data grows.

My database contains almost 5,000 men and looking at the numbers gives some interesting insights.

It appears that there was a large block of transfers into the battalion at some time and these weren't given the next available numbers in the 6-digit sequence, they were given numbers from towards the end of the allocation. I know that these men must have been transferred en masse because the sequential numbers have been given out in alphabetical order of surname.

Now, back to reading the ACIs.

Ken

[CSMMo]

I had a thought about my original question of RGA Mountain Gunners with 4th Highland Mountain Brigade numbers in other theatres and mountain batteries -

2/4th HMB stayed in the UK. I have assumed that they, including the one firing battery which transferred 80 members into other Brigade units but retained the command structure and cadre at home, were retained in the UK when the Brigade went to join the 29th Division for the Gallipoli landings and campaign so that they could train and provide replacement mountain gunners. They would have had to do this because they were the only Mountain Artillery unit in the UK. They left Bedford and went back to Rothesay where they commenced training second line units, later opening up training bases in Invergordon and Scotton.

Let's assume that a newly enlisted soldier joins the 2/4th HMB in Rothesay and is attested into the Army (TF). 2/4th HMB will give them a Regimental Number in the 300000's, right? If the Brigade's training mission included sending replacements to ALL the Mountain Batteries - the 4HMB as well as those in India, Palestine, Egypt and Mesopotamia - and soldiers within the Royal Regiment of Artillery keep their initially issued numbers -- that would cover the facts as we know them.

Fear not - I do not lie awake nights thinking about this. This thought just popped into my head (which may be worse!)

Thoughts? Objections? Alternatives?

Mike Morrison

[PPCLI]

However, if he went to another battalion within his own regiment he wasn't renumbered, even if he went into a non-TF battalion. I have not seen any reference to a man with two 6-digit numbers within the same regiment.

Hi all,

My research on the 5th KOSB (T.F.) fits in exactly with Ken's findings. The medal rolls show that 6-digit men who transferred to a different battalion within the same regiment retained their number, whether they ended up in a TF, regular or service battalion.

Stuart

[Graham Stewart]

Hello again,

There seems to be some serious doubt about renumbering within a regiment and so I'll give some examples from the Northumberland Fusiliers which will astound you. At the same time can I ask, do you only rely on the MIC's or do you also get copies of the Medal Roll Sheets, which work hand in hand with MIC's, but can have more detail within them. I've always used both sources and not relied on the one.

30/274 Pte Thomas W.Dodds(30th(Res)Bn,N.F.) - transferred to 25th Bn,N.F.(keeps 30/274) - transferred to 1/7th Bn,N.F.(renumbered 292088) - transferred to ? Bn,N.F.(renumbered 80036) - still serving 1920's(renumbered 4257344).

As you can see he never left the NF and yet was renumbered no less than three times within his own regiment.

9906 Pte Harry Bendall(11th Bn,N.F.) - transferred to 34th Divisional Cyclist Company(renumbered 9963) - transferred to 24th Bn,N.F.(renumbered 24/1665) - transferred to 1/7th Bn,N.F.(renumbered 292079).

I still maintain that in 1918 after the disbandments renumbering within a particular regiment may have been relaxed, whereas others may have kept faith with the wording of the ACI's that were produced.

As for six figure numbers transfers I have a 254515 Pte Thomas Edward Rogerson 1/5th Bn,N.F. transferred to the 1/6th Bn,N.F. and renumbered 266285 on his CWGC headstone, his 1/5th number is recorded in SDGW and up to press I can't find him in the MIC's.

One other thing you must also realise is that the numbers you find in your MIC's and Medal Rolls are the numbers that they stepped ashore with on active service. No numbers will be found regarding any reserve or other home units they may have served in while in the UK, unless of course they have a battalion prefix. As I collect Discharge Certificates I can firmly back this up with examples.

Graham.

Edited 29 November , 2005 by Graham Stewart

[PPCLI]

There seems to be some serious doubt about renumbering within a regiment and so I'll give some examples from the Northumberland Fusiliers which will astound you. At the same time can I ask, do you only rely on the MIC's or do you also get copies of the Medal Roll Sheets, which work hand in hand with MIC's, but can have more detail within them. I've always used both sources and not relied on the one.

As for six figure numbers transfers I have a 254515 Pte Thomas Edward Rogerson 1/5th Bn,N.F. transferred to the 1/6th Bn,N.F. and renumbered 266285 on his CWGC headstone, his 1/5th number is recorded in SDGW and up to press I can't find him in the MIC's.

Hi Graham,

Not doubting your research or the evidence/examples that you have provided us with - they are very convincing (for your regiment of interest). I think that it just shows that different regiments seemed to interpret the re-numbering system in a way that suited them best at the time. For myself, my evidence is taken from the KOSB medal rolls, e.g. Vic/BWM roll:

Pte. George Eastwood

1089, 1/5th KOSB

240114, 6th KOSB

There are dozens of similar examples.

A different one to the usual:

A/Cpl. Thomas Duckett

849, 1/5th KOSB

241649, 6th KOSB

241649, 1st KOSB

This man is also on the 1915 Star medal roll, but it states that he was discharged 8th May 1916 (para xxi). He must have re-enlisted (perhaps given a new 4-digit), re-numbered in 1917 (out of sequence - if in sequence he would have been 240026), then transferred to the 6th and 1st Bns. (both non-TF) with the same number.

And one closer to your heart:

Pte. Jardine Savage

1021, 1/5th KOSB

311212, 2/7th Northumberland Fusiliers

359670, Labour Corps

240089, 1/5th KOSB

240089, 2nd KOSB

As for your man, Pte Thomas Edward Rogerson, I think that there is an MIC for him, but it only has his original number of 6/5451. If you check the number next to that (5450) it will return an MIC for Thomas W McQuillan, 5450/266284, i.e. original number and new 6-digit number both one less than Thomas Edward Rogerson's numbers.

Hope this helps,

Stuart

Edited 29 November , 2005 by PPCLI

[sandyford]

The information which is emerging from this thread thanks to everyone's detailed research and Graham's documents is very valuable.

Graham - I think this is Rogerson in the War Diary. I had his CWGC & SDGW info. showing the 5th & 6th Batt. numbers.

He appears in the War Diary as J. E. Rogerson Died of wounds 16/02/1917 which matches with the CWGC & SDGW info.

In the 6th batt. War Diary J. E. Rogerson has the 4 figure number 5451 and there is also a MIC for Thomas Edward Rogerson 6/5451.

It is strange and must be a coincidence that 5451 are the middle numbers of his (2 5451 5) 5th Batt number.

Also, the date of his death is in the month before the 6 figure numbers appear in the War Diary. So 2 six figure numbers in a very short period and he was not listed as missing.

Bill's example of Pte Braham being renumbered seems to be an example of this.

Kate

Curiouser & curiouser.

[sandyford]

And

We have previously discussed the actual numbers which appear on medals. Which is not to say that they didn't have other numbers.

Kate

[Graham Stewart]

Stuart & Kate,

Thanks for your assistance regarding Rogerson, which was a pain to try and sort out.

Stuart,

Duckett is very interesting and without a doubt was one who under TF Regs could take his discharge once his "Termination of Engagement" was complete, even when on active service. On the back of their Discharge Certificate was a note pleading with them to reconsider. Evetually the Military Services Act caught up with those who went and they were eventually called back and renumbered, because once discharged their old number was considered defunct.

I even found some of these lads in the NF and one man Samuel Carr formerly 1/6th Bn,N.F., who ended up in the Royal Navy and Midmed in another thread has helped here with a copy of an enlistment form, which ask's the question "would this man be prepared to serve in the RN". For Sam Carr it was a brilliant get out clause as he'd served his apprenticeship in the Tyneside Shipyards.

As I've said earlier on I have no doubt their came a time, when the inter-transfer of men within a regiment was a matter of course and that rules regarding renumbering of TF personnel were relaxed, when transferring within a regiment. At the same time some units seem to have stuck to the relevant ACI's and carried on as normal. I just wish I had taken the time to copy the all important ACI 2198 regarding the six figure numbers.

Thanks again,

Graham.

Reverse of an Army Form E.511, T.F. Discharge Certificate appealing for those T.F. soldiers who had taken their discharge to reconsider.

Graham.

[Charles Fair]

Thanks for a very valuable thread chaps and chapesses. Jock Bruce's article on TLLT has a lot on this, esp the infantry page here: TF renumbering in the infantry.

My experience of researching the 19th Londons seems to bear out the ACIs in that men being posted between the 7th and 19th and men from these two being posted into the Middlesex TF battalions seem to keep their 6 digit numbers regardless. In contrast, men from Middlesex TF battalions going into the 19th invariably get a 4 and/or 6 digit 19th London number.

However men from the Middlesex regular and service battalions with a G/ and 5 digit number sometimes get 6 digit numbers. At other times they do not and keep their G/ number. So far I dont know why the inconsistency.

Charles

[CSMMo]

Just to round my education:

What are ACI's?

[Graham Stewart]

Mike,

They're Army Council Instruction's which had previously been called War Office Instructions. Just in case you come across AO's these are Army Orders. There are also Part I & Part II Orders at unit level. Every thing you need to know about how an Army functioned are in these, but they're generally ignored, unless of course you either knew of them or spent the best part of your life under them.

Graham.