4th Lincolns/Machine Gun Corps

[zippy.72]

Can anyone tell me anything about unit/date of transfer for TA Clapham from 4th Lincolns? He transferred to MGC at some point with the regimental number of 140103.

Any help much appreciated.

Regards

Tim

[Steve Bramley]

Hi Tim,

This is pure guesswork, but i'll have a go. I have listed 12 (early) members of the 5th Lincs that transferred to the MGC on my database. 7 of the 12 I have recorded as being wounded quite early (pre Oct 15) all have six digit service numbers (that is Territorials). Of the other 5 two were wounded at the Hohenzollern (Loos 13.10.15) and went on with the other 3 to join service battalions of MGC.

My first recorded MGC transfer is Pte Frank Boulton 1533 1/5th Lincolns, wounded 28.7.15. My guess is that he was offered the chance to join the MGC during/after his recovery. His MGC service number is 140091 and he was part of the 59th Battn MGC.

Perhaps on the same MGC training course as T.A. Clapham? So maybe Clapham was previously wounded as well?

Strangely, just before reading your post, i read a reply by 'toofatfortakeoff' to a post about the Hohenzollern Redoubt. His reply (nothing at all to do with the MGC) is an account by a 5th Lincoln called Frank Smith. I checked the Medal Index Cards for his service number to see if he was on my database. One of the other Frank Smith's listed was Pte 1593, who later transferrred to the MGC. His MGC number was 140104. So, he must have been on the same course as Clapham and was most probably a mate?

Don't know if this will be of any help

Steve.

[jim_davies]

Tim,

Could only find 1 other 4th Lincs lad with a similar number: Joseph Kirk, who was renumbered 140096.

Jim

Ps Quick look at soldiers died shows tthe 140000s to be a range of men from different regiments with the first casualities beginning in March 1918.

Steve-also a Henry Albert Dallas, formerly 5955, Lincs-140105 MGC

[Steve Bramley]

Tim,

Jim mentions in his reply Henry Dallas, whose MGC service number is similar to T.A. Clapham's. Dallas, while serving with the Lincs, was re-numbered (241936). The renumbering of Territorials occured in March 1917.

Chris Baker's section on the main site Here about the MGC states that the Divisional MGC did not come into existence until April 1917. This leads me to suspect that Dallas was transferred from the Lincs to Divisional MGC after March 17.

As far as I am aware the others mentioned above were not renumbered with the Lincolns so I'm assuming that they were already in training with the MGC before March 1917, which I'm afraid does not help with the actual dates of transfer for Clapham!!

Would it be safe to think that with Dallas having a MGC number close to Clapham that the latter must have been in training from early '17?

The other thing that Jim mentions is that the first casualties for this 'batch' of men start occuring in early '18. This could suggest that all this batch joined at the same time?

Dunno! we need a MGC numbering expert on this one.

Cheers,

Steve

[yellow]

Of those machine gunners who had not left after the Redoubt.......left after the high casualty rate of the Somme. Many men of the Battalion left for the MGC and became officers such as my old mate L. Cpl George Moss.........who was one of the last living machine gunners of the 4th and I actually met him. he used to work in a brush factory then became a dentist. Such a calm and collected man of the officer sort who could keep his head together in action. His attitude to life let him live just over 90 years.

The best 4th Battalion machine gunners were with B Company 7th Platoon all of which were highly decorated and many of their awards were presented by the King. The company held 9 ribbons all in all which I believe is something of a record for the regiment. Turn to page 129 of my book for a photo of them given to me by Mr Moss. No doubt he would be happy I used his material for all to see.

As for which battalion its anyone’s guess with out looking at the blitz papers I would put my money on the 46th Battalion MGC.

Steve.

[yellow]

Not that I would disagree with this great web site , but the 50 MGC were in action on the Somme in 1916.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

There has been discussion on this before.

This thread in its later stages seems to suggest that 140000 numbers were a lot later than 1915 (The MGC did not exist until late 1915) and were more like the very end of 1917, early 1918 instead.

 

Steve.

[Staffsyeoman]

Can't have been 'divisional MGC' in 1917, as the Corps was only reorganised on these lines overall in March 1918 (although a very few units pre-empted this in February). Unless he was a member of the fourth COMPANY (usually with a high 100s or 200s number) present in each division which acted as a form of 'divisional reserve' to beef up the Brigade companies as required.

To be in 46 Bn MGC he would have most likely had to have been in one of the Companies previosuly attached to the Bdes on 46 Division.

[yellow]

137th Brigade Machine Gun Company (formed 7 March 1916, moved into 46 MG Bn 28 February 1918)

[Steve Bramley]

hmsk212, Steve,

Sounds plausible, especially after reading the other thread that stebie linked. What is bugging me is why were the 'early' Lincs Terriers not re-numbered like Henry Dallas? Or is he just a red-herring?

You've started something here Tim My heads spinning!

S.

[Steve Bramley]

Not that I would disagree with this great web site  , but the 50 MGC were in action on the Somme in 1916.

Steve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yellow Steve,

What is the connection here, have I missed something? 'scuse me if I'm being thick!

Steve.

[yellow]

Its this I dont like because it doesnt mention Brigades.

A further proposal to provide each Division with a fourth Company, and to increase the Lewis guns at the Battalion to 16, was sanctioned. The Lewis numbers increased by 1st July 1916, but the Divisional Machine Gun Company did not come into existence until April 1917.

Steve.

[zippy.72]

[Wow!!

There is such a wealth of knowledge out there. The more I can find out about this man, the better. Thanks to all those who have posted. Does anyone have any named photos to 4th Lincolns which may have Clapahm on?

Tim

[yellow]

If you want a photo of Clapham I suggest you contact Ted Clapham, I believe hes still alive.......those medals were awarded to his father. This I am 100% certain of as he was a big mate of my Grandfathers.

He never did know what happened to the medals and the familly assumed they were sold a long time ago.

But anyway everyones heard of Clapham MM he lived on Newton Street in Lincoln.

Small world isnt it.

Steve.

[Dan1]

Hi Steve

I have been following this thread as I have an interest in 4th Lincolns and live in Lincoln- is there any reason why Clapham was a particularly famous MM winner if everyone has heard of him as I haven't- am I missing something?

I believe Newton St no longer exists - probably under the Siemmens site next to Pelham Bridge?

Regards

Dan

If you want a photo of Clapham I suggest you contact Ted Clapham, I believe hes still alive.......those medals were awarded to his father. This I am 100% certain of as he was a big mate of my Grandfathers.

He never did know what happened to the medals and the familly assumed they were sold a long time ago.

But anyway everyones heard of Clapham MM he lived on Newton Street in Lincoln.

Small world isnt it.

Steve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[yellow]

Dan,

My family has been researching the 1/4 since 1948. All my relatives worked at Rustons and on the Railways rubbing shoulders with many of the living veterans of the 1/4th. I myself was even lucky enough to meet one of them.

As is stands Clapham’s son was a big friend of my Grandfathers. The relationship is no more complicated than that.

The 1/4th battalion all knew each other they were the local lads and any of them who won gallantry awards were well remembered by their comrades, take Hibbs DCM for example. This is how it was for Clapham and other ribbon winners.

There is not a day that goes by where I do not put some time to one side for a little research into the regiment and with the fairly recent opening of the WW1 records at the TNA add to too existing research first undertaken at the end of the 1940's by my late grandfather.

My purpose is not to form a huge private collection for only myself for monitory reasons , it is to share. That is exactly what I did when I came together with John Benson. To give some recognition to the men who I felt were neglected but were the true heroes of the regiment and of Lincoln. My work on that book was free, I take no financial rewards from the sale of that book. For now their names are immortal and live on in those pages.......and if you have read into it there are some examples how how Ive set the record straight........like who was the true hero at Nitrals Nek.

There were many decades in Lincoln where by no one was interested in these veterans. Even twenty years ago there were only a hand full of interested parties in Lincoln. Its hardly surprising no one really knows who the vets of Lincoln were.

Steve.

[belgotim]

Hi Steve,

do you have information about soldiers serving Royal Welsh Fusiliers and then being taken up in the Machine Gun Corps.

More specifically, ELF Baines (wounded on 09/01/1916 near Mametz) whilst serving with 16th Bat. RWF (B. Coy).

His MIC says he was a 2nd Lt in the Maching Gun Corps....but not what Company, Battallion...Etc

Army number for ELF Baines is 23255.

I do hope you could point me in the right direction!

thanks,

Tim

[belgotim]

The Machine Gun Corps (Motors)...does this mean he stayed with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, but as part of the MGC or did he transfer to a different Battalion?

I am trying to find out in what MGC Company he was...

Tim

[Guest C729LEE]

Steve & chaps

Just saw your thread, I wondered about the MGC.

I picked up a BWM recently to a Pte. Albert Gould of the Lincs. Regt. No.6027, and MGC No.161267. He must have been a very late arrival to the MGC. No research done on this one as yet. Is he one of your lot, Steve ?

Living in hope

Lee

[yellow]

Lee,

I saw that medal come up for sale........someone certainly made you pay. I dont envy the Lincs collectors of today, you have to pay four times the price of almost any other line regiment!

Anyway from looking at the service number I dont believe this man was 1/4th......I'll have a guess with looking at any records and say he was probably 1st Battalion with that number........maybe entitled to the 14 Star with Mons Clasp?

Steve.

[yellow]

Lee,

I saw that medal come up for sale........someone certainly made you pay. I dont envy the Lincs collectors of today, you have to pay four times the price of almost any other line regiment!

Anyway from looking at the service number I dont believe this man was 1/4th......I'll have a guess with looking at any records and say he was probably 1st Battalion with that number........maybe entitled to the 14 Star with Mons Clasp?

Steve.

[yellow]

Lee,

I saw that medal come up for sale........someone certainly made you pay. I dont envy the Lincs collectors of today, you have to pay four times the price of almost any other line regiment!

Anyway from looking at the service number I dont believe this man was 1/4th......I'll have a guess with looking at any records and say he was probably 1st Battalion with that number........maybe entitled to the 14 Star with Mons Clasp?

Steve.

[Chris]

Lee and other interested parties.

Re: Gould, if he was a territorial and it looks fairly likely, the lack of his six digit territorail number would suggest he transferred to the Machine Gun Corps prior to April 1917, but then his 6 digit number may simply be missing from his MIC record. The number 6027 also makes it possible that he was a pre war regular or reservist, but i think less likely than the Territorial theory.

Unfortunatley i have not much info on the Lincs to MGC men either, the only defiante date i have being for an officer, Lieut. Lown who moved units on 26th August 1916. Pte. 3150 Fred Hunt, from Kirton Lindsey, 1/5th Lincs also transferred in Aug 1916 (no definate date), his memoirs stating he moved as he was offered quicker promotion. Anyway his MGC number from a Aug 1916 move was 67672, and he did get promotion.

Chris

[Chris]

Lee, steve

Just had a further look at the MICs and i am going to plump that he was 5th Lincs to MGC, although i do still agree that he could possibly be 1st Lincs, or even 2nd. I just think the greater chance is he is a terrier. Take the numbers 6024 - 6030 from the MICs:

6024 Edmund Scambler - 242003

6025 Harry Addison - 1st Lincs

6025 James Bradley - 202388

6026 Edward Greenstock - 242005

6026 John Carter - 202389

6026 John Biddles (must be a Regular due to process of elimination)

6027 Albert Gould (the man in question)

6027 John Carrot - 202390

6028 No MIC's

6029 James Ringham 242008

6029 Thomas Parker later N&D's 33196

6030 No MIC's

So from seven MIC's we have ten men, of whom two are regulars (Addison and Biddles); 6 Terriers (4th Lincs - Bradley, Carter, Carrot; 5th Lincs- Scambler, Greenstock, Ringham); and two unsures Gould and Parker.

Therefore the greater chance (based on the above) suggests he was initially 5th Lincs, but as we all know Lee could help solve this by dipping in his pocket and parting with £3.50 of his hard earned cash (its less than two pints even at Blue Bell prices, and not even half a dish at Kar's Lee), and see if Gould has a Star entitlment and date of entry to France which as yellow points out would then confirm he is right and Gould was a Regular, not a Terrier and i am wrong.

If nothing else the above helps see why the Territorial army renumbered in 1917.

Chris

[Stebie9173]

Nice piece of analysis Chris.

On the basis that the numbers seemed to allocated reasonably sequentially, I can't see the MGC number being allocated before 1918, so it's diificult to imagine him without a 6-digit number if a Territorial and transferred at that time.

My money's with yellow on this one!

Steve.