HOSPITAL RECORDS

[smitten]

Dear All,

I've attached a copy of the FWR main page showing the injury/contusion to have occurred around September 1916 if this helps at all.

Given that he was discharged at some point in 1917 it is possible that this is actually not the cause of his eventual discharge after all?

This still leaves the enigma as to his 'discharge' style MIC and its unresolved SWB reference which is dated 13/11/17, quite some time after this incident.

I'm assuming the SWB official stamp/box is only on there on his MIC because he must have applied for it at some point but subsequently had his application rejected around November 1917, but perhaps this related to a later wound/cause of discharge?

I'm now less sure how this medical record and his later discharge are related given the time difference, so any further clarification would be greatly appreciated if possible.

Kind Regards

Colin

g smitten medical record.docx

[smitten]

Dear All

Sorry to add another thought but I guess it is quite possible that he was actually discharged in late 1916/early 1917 as a result of this 'injury' and then later applied for a SWB in 1917 at which point it was then refused.

This would then link everthing together given that the MIC process only began in mid/late 1917 (?) and his MIC would then have included reference to his SWB application and rejection (explaining that strange reference number and date)?

As I say just another thought to add to possible the mix.

Kind Regards

Colin.

[TEW]

Just about to say something like that. His card doesn't give a discharge date, only a date next to where it says date of application but no guarantee the date is for an application.

The SWB official stamp/box is not a stamp box for the SWB it's for his BWM and Victory.

His injury may have been worse than you think and/or had longer term complications or perhaps it was aggravated by treatment. Perhaps he developed additional symptoms in hospital, not uncommon. Perhaps they wanted to keep him in the army until his SIW had been legally dealt with but medically he was unfit to be dealt with.

Lots of maybes and perhaps I know but not much to go on.

As far as I know the discharging officer/doctor had to go through a whole list of forms, some with him present. One of these forms would relate to the SWB you'd think that if his sub-clause of KR392 (reason for discharge) negated a SWB then he would have been told that and not been given the form. That assumes the doctor/officer know all the regs and perhaps he didn't.

He could quite easily have written a letter trying to claim a SWB after his discharge or one asking if he was entitled.

The regs for SWB eligibility changed in August 1917 and again in September (I think). Perhaps he thought that may have made him entitled.

I think the MIC process started later and they were created from the medal rolls and certainly not before the medals came into being.

A discharge card was created for him (reasons unknown) probably in Nov 1917. When his BWM and Victory were being dealt with (circa Nov 1920) they located his discharge card and stamped it for those medals rather than create a new one.

The 2682/2/b may be a correspondence ref. to the Medal Office from another army dept telling them he can't have a SWB if he applies in the future.

TEW

[smitten]

TEW/Craig and all,

His MIC seems to have had the medal stamp/box put in slightly the wrong place and should have been under (b)/Medal on his card although his SWB badge details are correctly shown under (a)/Badge with that enigmatic reference number and date.

In conclusion I suspect his injury in 1916 was indeed the route cause of his discharge and that subsequently he applied for the SWB but this was declined based upon the more detailed knowledge the Army had at the time and their qualifying criteria, records of which may no longer exist I suspect.

Thank you to everyone who has shared their expertise and time with this post and I'm now a lot nearer to understanding my grandfather's military record in WW1 as I suspect this is as far as I will be able to go.

Kind Regards

Colin.

[TEW]

Timbo,

Is it possible that he was transferred from 36ccs to 39ccs and then taken by 20th ambulance train. I don't know how the MoP worked out what they were keeping as the 2% sample but is it possible there were CCSs specifically for SIWs or is that just skewed by the retention process?

I guess we'll see next week when you check it. Meanwhile I may check the above diaries now there is a date.

TEW

[Sue Light]

39 Casualty Clearing Station was used exclusively for self-inflicted wounds. Unless seriously wounded, men were not sent back to the UK but retained in France for as long as possible and at least until the reasons for their admission had been established - a few of course were found NOT to be self-inflicted. Between November 1916 and February 1917 this CCS was closed, and during that period men with self-inflicted wounds were admitted to 36 CCS instead.

Sue

[TEW]

Thanks Sue,

I guess with the absence of a MH106 ledger for 36CCS that the FWR entry must be from 39CCS even though it states 36CCS to 20th Ambulance train. I don't suppose the 39th ledger was taken over by the 36th for a period?

TEW

[Sue Light]

Sorry I don't know the answer to that - I looked at these records several years ago when I just wanted a broad view of MH106. This is a direct cut and paste from my scrappy notes at that time. Not relevant to the period you're looking at but perhaps an overview:

MH106/809 39th Casualty Clearing Station

9th October 1916 to 25th April 1917

Hand written on front of register is ‘Self Inflicted Wounds’ Men suffering from self inflicted wounds were admitted here from a large range of other units, and it would seem to be a collecting centre for this type of injury. Some are entered in the register as ‘accidental’ but it appears that this word has been added at a later date – perhaps when a firm diagnosis has been established.

There was a period of closure from November 1916 until February 1917. At this time the admissions went to No. 36 Casualty Clearing Station, and on re-opening, 75 men were transferred from No. 36 on 19th February 1917.

The register contains approximately 400 admissions during this period. The majority of admissions in were transfers from: Field Ambulances: Nos. 2, 9, 38, 47, 97, 98, 140, 141, 1/3 Northern, and XIV Corps MDS No. 36 CCS and No. 5 CCS Injuries included:

Gun shot wounds to feet, toes, legs, elbow, face and hands

Bomb wounds

Detonator wounds [many of these]

Axe wounds,

Bayonet wounds,

Injuries caused by revolvers and pistols,

Petrol burns,

Trauma to eyes.

There was no apparent difference between left and right hand wounds. It’s noticeable that very few of the men were transferred to Ambulance trains, and thence to England.

The majority were kept for a considerable time, and then either returned to other casualty clearing stations, or the New Zealand Stationary Hospital. A large proportion – about a third – were discharged directly back to their units. Mostly men are admitted singly, but there are occasional cases of two men coming from the same unit on the same day. On 17th October 1916 two men from the 4th Worcesters were admitted together. They were both lance corporals, and a total of 25 years service between them. One had a gun shot wound to his left foot, and one a detonator wound to the right hand. Both spent 29 days at 39 CCS before being transferred out together to No. 5 CCS.

Only one death occurred during the period of the register, and it was the last man named. He was a private from 97th Machine Gun Company who was admitted with a gun shot wound to his abdomen on 25th April 1917 and died the following day

[TEW]

Thanks Sue, informative as ever.

Will look at the 3 diaries tomorrow and re-post and await timbo's reply into the transcription issue if that's what it is.

TEW

[TEW]

Well,

There's an awful lot of fantastic detail in the diaires mentioned previously. But briefly and relevant to Smitten.

I'm interpreting his FWR as meaning transfered from 36CCS to 20th Ambulance train on 11/10/1916 presumably having spent 37 days with the 36CCS from 5/9/16. Unless he's in the transfers 36CCS-39CCS noted below on 8/9/1916.

Diary for 20AT on 11/10/16 says they moved from LONGEAU to CORBIE at 14.20. Commenced loading at CORBIE 15.30. Left for ROUEN 18.00. Arrived ROUEN 13.15 on 12/10/16 and commenced off loading.

Then there is a table of those evacuated, no names but it does state. Total 502, Self-inflicted lying 3, sitting 3. Smitten must be one of those six.

39CCS

I may have to do a new post as this could digress into something else. But there is a breakdown of the 4 camps for the 39CCS, locations given. Matron is named as are 3 or so staff nurses just for Oct/Nov 1916. 30 SIW cases were returned to duty on 11/10/16, obviously Smitten not one of those.

3rd Nov 1916. Meeting to discuss rearrangment of the camps. 39CCS to become infectious cases only.

11th Nov 1916. Chief clerk from 5CCS attached for instruction regarding SIW cases. SI cases to be taken over by him.

15th Nov 1916. 5CCS opens to day for reception of SI cases, this unit now closes for such cases. Two cars arrived to assist in the transfer. 116 cases for transfer but found unfit to travel at present.

36CCS

36CCS admitted 1698 wounded ORs on 4/9/16 and 251 on 5/9/16, no mention of SIW.

8/9/1916. 5 cases of obvious SI cases transfered to 39CCS

Very good daily tally of Officers/ORs admitted/evacuated sick, wounded. Officers that died are named, 25 for September.

25/10/1916. Another transfer of SIW cases to 39CCS.

I think I have now digressed so will read diaries in more detail later and ponder the next step which will include naming the nurses, Sue?

TEW

[TEW]

Colin,

I have found another 'discharge' type medal card for a man discharged in April 1916 His service being no longer required. Roll is marked KR392 xxv sickness (not sure why sickness is there).

His card is marked with a similar ref. to Smitten's 8318/2/b and he has a SWB list ref. which I followed and the SWB roll is annotated with, Re-submitted in accordance with WO letter 8318/2/b dated 18/7/1919. The date is not on the card, only the roll. This man did not apply for his SWB for over 3 years after his discharge. He was actually discharged before the SWB came into being and the regs regarding eligibility for SWB had changed at least 3 times before he applied. This man received his SWB.

I'm sure this means your 2682/2/b ref. must be the same ie a WO letter, which I suggested in my last sentence in post#28. The 2682/2/b is a ref. to correspondence between the WO and the medal office. The correspondence (and raising of the card) may have stemmed from Smitten writing a letter to the WO but that's another thing.

His address on the card suggests (I think):

The address was added to the card when it was created in Nov 1917 either from the WO letter or from his attestation form, probably the former.

Knowing if he changed address between attesting and 13/11/17 would help but not sure that's easy to determine. 1911 census shows he was at Copt Heath Wharf, Solihull. He may have written to the WO just to inform them of a change of address and nothing to do with a SWB claim.

TEW

[smitten]

TEW,

Thank you for this and for finally resolving the oblique reference and date on the MIC.

I need to do some more work on checking the generic family history for my grandfather in terms of when he married etc. as the Copt Heath Wharf address appears to be the family home before he married and where he previously lived with this parents and other Smittens, including two of his uncles who served in the Royal Navy prior and during WW1. I know he worked at a brick works in Mill Lane so it is possible that the cottage was linked in some way to his employer.

I terms of his MIC I'm assuming that this WO date/reference implies that he did apply for a SWB after his discharge at some point and prior to the date on the MIC, and that he was subsequently deemed not to be eligible, otherwise why would the ref appear on his card at all?

I understand that the SWB was issued from around September 1916 so it would have been something that he could have applied for around this time, even though applications were often made several years later and after the conclusion of hostilities.

Unfortunately as his card doesn't confirm a KR classification for his discharge I can't be sure why he was actually discharged and also when although I'm assuming it must have been sometime after his hospitalisation and yet before the date of the WO reference on his MIC?

As soon as I have the information regarding his marriage and likely change of address to that on his MIC I'll confirm.

Thank you again for finally resolving this enigma!

Kind Regards

Colin.

[TEW]

I think with the Mill Lane address appearing on the card does suggest there was some correspondence about him or maybe actually from him. The medal office got the Mill Lane address from somewhere, probably the WO letter. They may have got that address from him as his post-discharge address or from correspondence from him.

I'd now tend to avoid the assumption that he tried to claim a SWB, there's not enough to go on and too many ifs and buts.

The medal office did create cards for men who were not entitled to any medals simply because they had some correspondence about that man. The cards were kept for future reference in case of further correspondence or claims etc and updated or annotated as such. His card was updated in the early 1920's with the BWM and Victory stamp box and refs. With the Mill Lane address the only one on the card those medals would be sent to that address and there is nothing to note they were returned as undelivered.

There is a slight possibility there is a SWB roll entry for him that's been crossed out and therefore not transcribed by ancestry, they don't transcribed everything. Doesn't explain the lack of KR reason on the card though, nor does that card have a date of discharge.

Post again with the address information.

TEW

[smitten]

TEW,

Thank you, the only way I can be reasonably sure about his address is to obtain a copy of his second borns birth certificate, my Aunty Jenny, who was born in 1914 and which I'll now do although it will take a week or so to arrive and before I an post the details.

Given that he does not appear on the SWB rolls when I checked them at Kew I'm now thinking that he may not have applied for the SWB, with the WO reference on the card there for future reference about him should it be needed some point and relating to some form of correspondence by/with/about my grandfather (exact nature unknown).

It's pretty certain I think that he was discharged some time between September 1916 and November 1917 and that this stemmed from his self inflicted injury but without the KR ref and associated date on the card this may be as far as I can go.

I would not be surprised if he didn't bother to apply for the SWB as he had already lost his younger brother Francis at Jutland on board HMS Black Prince and two younger cousins, one at the 2nd battle of Ypre in 1915 and the other on 1st July 1916 at the Somme, both serving with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. Perhaps he felt that it had little value compared with the loss he and the family had already suffered.

As soon as I have the address details I'll post again.

Kind Regards

Colin.

[timbo58]

Hello Tew, apologies for my late response.

You are absolutely correct.

The record reads that he went to 39 CCS from 36 CCS and later went onto 20 AT.

Unfortunately there seems to have been a minor issue with the way the spreadsheets upon which the transcriptions are entered translating itself to our database and in a few cases it has missed off the rather crucial 'where are they at the time of this record' CCS/FA/AT etc number.

My sincere apologies for any confusion this caused and heartfelt thanks for raising it!

[smitten]

^TEW,

^{I've just received the birth certificate of my aunty Jennie and George Smitten was indeed living at Mill Lane when she was born in March 1914 so it is reasonable to assume this was also his address when he was discharged and/or had any contact with the WO at this point..}

^{Hope his helps in terms of the understanding the correspondence reference on his MIC and possible scenario behind his discharge given that his contusion/bruise could have been severe and to the head, back or other vital part of his anatomy which rendered him no longer fit to serve.}

^{Kind Regards}

^Colin.

[smitten]

TEW,

Sorry, his SIW was an injury to his right foot as per his hospital record so sorry for missing this in my previous post.

Still not sure how such an injury could have resulted in him being discharged but it must have been quite severe and prevented him from being fit for further service.

As he was subsequently awarded the War and Victory medals I'm assuming the circumstances would have been accidental and not a deliberate attempt to injure himself, and that had he chosen to apply then quite possibly he would also have received the SWB.

Thank you again for all your help, expertise and patience with this post as it has now revealed far more about my grandfather than I'd previously thought possible.

Kind Regards

Colin.

[TEW]

If the Mill Lane address is where he was in March 1914 and it shows on the card probably dated Nov 1917 you can be fairly certain this was the address he gave when he attested. It would seem there had been no change of address so adding the address to the card seems a little unnecessary as the army had his address which would be the default one for sending out his BWM & Victory and if the WO needed to write to him.

A couple of things that aren't really known:

• That he wrote to the WO for any reason. It may be correspondence between WO and Medal Office. Reasons, content unknown.
• That the injury is the WO reason for discharging him.
• Where/When he was discharged

He may have been discharged as;

Not being likely to become an efficient soldier

Unfitted for the duties of the corps

For misconduct

Having been sentenced to penal servitude

Having been sentenced to be discharged with ignomony.

Some of the above may also mean his BWM & Vict were forfeit, as we know he had his medals those wouldn't apply.

The original SWB criteria from Army Order 316 1916 identified issuing the SWB due to - Age or physical infirmity arising from wounds or sickness caused by military service.

I can't find it written anywhere but one would think from that that someone discharged eg 'For Misconduct' would not be covered by that order.

However, Army Order 316 of 1916 was superseded by Army Order 265 of 11/8/1917. This changed the goalposts slightly but one sub-section is worded:

'after service overseas in the armed Forces of the Crown, on account of disablement or ill-health caused otherwise than by misconduct'

So that would definitely exclude men discharged under KR392 (xi) misconduct. I think Army Order 265 of 11/8/1917 was re-worded again in September 1917 and certainly again in Feb 1919.

Smitten's card has the correspondence date in Nov 1917 but no cause or reason for discharge or enlistment date which is usually present. So, had not been discharged before 13/11/17.

I don't doubt his injury may have been serious and am not judging the reason behind his SIW but the army had a tougher view. If they had discharged him under KR392 (xvi) he may then have been entitled to a pension and I doubt the WO would have that.

Also, just because we know he went through 36/39 CCSs in Sept/Oct 1916 we don't know what happened after that. He may have been moved to 5CCS in Nov 1916 and been in France for some time for medical and judicial treatment. Extracts from 5CCS diary who took over the SIW in Nov 1916 show SIW men were being sent off for Field General Courts Martial at quite a rate. Perhaps that's something to pursue. Seems they may have been quite tough on the SIW cases, separate camp (possibly wired off) certainly guarded and not given the protection of other patients when 5CCS was shelled, see below. After the shelling 4/12/16 the SIW cases were transferred to 2/2 London CCS.

Extracts from 5CCS diary Nov 1916. 22/11/16 and 4/12/16

TEW

[TEW]

Timbo,

Thanks for the info on Smitten being transferred from 36CCS to 39 CCS, not sure if maybe 20 AT did that transfer or if they transferred him from 39CCS onto the ‘Sick Convoy’. Presumably the later although they seem to be going back and forth from Corbie to Rouen and not Allonville where 39CCS was, another FA involved I guess.

I’ve been going through the diaries for 36, 39, 5 and 55 CCS as they opened and closed for SIW cases.

31/7/16 39CCS opens at Allonville for SIW and others.
18/6/16 First mention of SIW case at 36 CCS
8/9/16 8 SIW cases from 36CCS to 39CCS.
10/9/16 SIW camp set up at 39CCS
25/9/16 Transfers from 36CCS to 39CCS
15/11/16 5CCS opens for SIW
16/11/16 39CCS SIW to move to 5CCS
4/12/16 5CCS shelled
6/12/16 5CCS SIW move to 55CCS
6/12/16 SIW from 5CCS received at 55CCS, 1Sgt. and 9 OR on guard.
27/1/17 91 SIW at 55CCS moved to 36CCS
27/1/17 36CCS received 108 SIW cases from 55CCS
27/1/17 39CCS closes
15/2/17 39CCS re-opens
19/2/17 SIW cases at 36CCS moved to 39CCS (except Australians & 15th Div. men)
19/2/17 76 SIW cases arrived at 39CCS
27/4/17 39CCS SIW cases to move to 13CCS


Certainly not an easy record keeping exercise for the RAMC! I’m not sure the way TNA have indexed the MH106 for 39CCS is quite right.

MH106/808 appears to be for SIW 16/5/1916 – 8/10/1916.
39CCS were receiving SIW 31/7/16 – 17/11/16. Re-opened 19/2/17 to 27/4/17, covered by MH106/809.


Specific to 39CCS and a record you have for 4582 T Frawley Royal Munster Fusiliers. Intrigued by this as I assume he must have been admitted to 39CCS and one of the men that ended up at 5CCS in Oct 1916. Oddly, their diary has him as attached to the 5CCS and sent for FGCM 25/10/16. Sentence promulgated 31/10/16 42 days No. 1 Field Punishment. Very odd if he was admitted 39CCS as SIW but ended up attached to 5CCS.

TEW