daggers Posted 9 August , 2013 Share Posted 9 August , 2013 My uncle died of wounds sustained in no man's land on 8 April 1916, and the battalion's war diary shows that they "relieved 7th KOYLI in trenches on extreme left of British Line", on the previous day. The entry for 8 April is headed "trenches s. of Boesinghe." On the same date two men were killed during shelling of FARGATE. I have a relevant 1:10,000 map, headed ST JULIEN, supplied by WFA, but cannot locate Fargate. Could someone please suggest the frontage occupied by 12 KLR at this time, and perhaps identify Fargate? Thanks Daggers [edited to subject header] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 9 August , 2013 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2013 Bumping up after changing title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 9 August , 2013 Share Posted 9 August , 2013 Checked the 12/KRRC diary for same period as also in 20th (Light) Division. Not much help, but did find ... "15 Apl - Boesinghe Trenches - Relieved 12 RB in FARGATE and Advanced Posts on left of Left Brigade Sector." Also ... "18 Mar - ??? - Relieved 12 RB on W canal bank in FARGATE and Advanced Posts. (Map:- Boesinghe Sheet 25 N. ???)" Where ??? = illegible :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sajackr Posted 9 August , 2013 Share Posted 9 August , 2013 Daggers, Could this be it? On the East bank of the Yser Canal, SE of Bosinghe. Map dated Jan 1917. R'ds Sajackr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 9 August , 2013 Share Posted 9 August , 2013 Daggers - edit - too slow! Please see attached two pictures – one from 1915 showing Fargate and the other from June 1916 showing the same area. I think there was a German attack on 20th Division which captured some ground back in this area in early 1916. The divisional history may help but I haven’t access to my copy. Kind regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 9 August , 2013 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2013 Thanks to all. Those plots look conclusive where my March 1916 map is silent. Any suggestions on the likely frontage of a battalion at that place and time? D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 9 August , 2013 Share Posted 9 August , 2013 From Inglefield History of the Twentieth (Light) Division: "The new line, held by two brigades with one in reserve, was the left sector of the British front and ran on the north side of Ypres from a point 1500 yards due north of St Jean to the canal bank about 1000 yards south-east of Boesinghe. On the right was the 6th Division and on the left the French Thirty-sixth Corps. <snip> In order to make cclear the operations that followed, it is necessary to describe in some detail the trenches on this front. They were numbered from the right [i.e. south], B15 to B17, D19 to D22 and E2 (just south-east of Krupp Farm) being the area of the right brigade. The left brigade trenches <snip> were E24 to E29 and F30 to F35. The ground between the canal and the German lines was nothing but a quagmire. It was therefore impossible to construct continuous front line trenches, and those that did exist had in many places been blown in. These isolated sections of trench, separated from each otehr by gaps which in places were 80 yards or more across, were held by parties of varying in strength from 8 to 10 men to a platoon. They were narrow and shallow, the parapets low and rarely bullet-proof, with very little wire in front of them. There was only a very small parados in some places and hardly anywhere any revetment. There were pratically no dugouts. Communication trenches were few and bad; they were extremely difficult to drain and were being demolished by shell fire, so that rations, R.E. material, etc., had to b brought up a long way from the dumps under very difficult conditions. The Germans had constructed concrete block-houses all along the front at short intervals, and their positions on th Pilckem ridge entirely dominated the whole ground as far as Ypres, rendering anymovement in the front areas very difficult. " [inglefield pp.37-8] These positions were taken over by 20th (Light) Division from the night of 11/12 Feb 1916 onwards. The brigade frontages were held by two battalions with other battalions alternately relieving them. The battalion frontage was therefore roughly half that of the brigade. F30 to F32 can be seen in the 1915 (left hand) trench map in Colin's post above. Fargate is the more or less continuous trench on the canal's east bank behind these "front line" trenches. On 18 Feb, the Division was ordered to extend the line to the right [south] taking over as far as Pratt Street, just north-west of Wieltje Farm from 6th Division, adding some 1500 yards to the divisional frontage. The rearrangement was achieved by each brigade extending its right. The left [northern] brigade put three of its battalions into the line, while the right [southern] brigade kept two battalions in the line but widened the battalion frontages. This was implemented on 21 and 22 Feb. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 9 August , 2013 Share Posted 9 August , 2013 I think there was a German attack on 20th Division which captured some ground back in this area in early 1916. The divisional history may help but I haven’t access to my copy. Kind regards Colin Quite correct - at approx 16:30hrs on 19th February 1916, the enemy captured posts F34 and F33. This left post F30 in the air and it was decided to withdraw the garrison there also. Posts F31 and F32 had earlier been wiped out by bombardment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 10 August , 2013 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2013 Mark and Colin very many thanks for your help. I am now much better acquainted with the situation, having depended so far on a page from the war diary. Daggers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 31 July , 2014 Share Posted 31 July , 2014 I think there was a German attack on 20th Division which captured some ground back in this area in early 1916. Kind regards Colin There was also a major action here by 4th Division in July 1915. Details (including lots of good sketch maps & some aerials here: 11th Brigade attack at Pilkem, 6/7th July 1915 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 31 July , 2014 Share Posted 31 July , 2014 Couldn't resist posting the two sketch maps of the July 1915 state-of-play from the other topic! German version (courtesy Malte Znaniecki) British version (Courtesy of Andy Pay) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 31 July , 2014 Share Posted 31 July , 2014 And from the 14th Division material in January 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 31 July , 2014 Share Posted 31 July , 2014 Fargate, January 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 31 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 31 July , 2014 Once again, my thanks for this illumination. More for an ever-growing file. Daggers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 10 August , 2014 Share Posted 10 August , 2014 Daggers, Just to tell you ... that thousands of times I have driven by car or ridden by bike on Fargate Trench... that hundreds of times I have walked on F.33 and .34 (and even dug, as a Digger nearby) But that was very easy for me, as I live in Boezinge. :-) Should you want a photo or so... (Though not easy : Fargate is a road, and F.33 - 34 is the north end of the industrial estate ...) Aurel (in rainy Boezinge) P.S. Sorry, but I had not seen the Topic till now. Accidentally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 10 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2014 Aurel That is a very kind offer, but I think that I have all I can usefully file for the next generation. I have visited my uncle's grave, 14 years ago, at Lijssenthoek which was a moving experience, and have sent to the visitor centre copies of all the papers I had collected about my uncle. I am always very touched by the sentiments of the Belgian people, who seem to hold equally strong memories of those dark days. Thank you. Daggers (in equally rainy Liverpool0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 10 August , 2014 Share Posted 10 August , 2014 No problem, Daggers. But next time I drive on the road covering Fargate Trench, or walk on where F33 and 34 trench were, I'll take a pic anyway, for my own archives. And think : This is where ... Well, "This is where ..." is a sentence that I think all the time in Boezinge. Except in my own place. (And maybe one day I'll find a shell hole in my backyard. :-) ) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 10 August , 2014 Share Posted 10 August , 2014 You cam also use McMaster Maps Search which gives " Fargate [Trench] St Julien 28NW2 C 7 c, 13 a " Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 10 August , 2014 Share Posted 10 August , 2014 You cam also use McMaster Maps Search which gives " Fargate [Trench] St Julien 28NW2 C 7 c, 13 a " Mike Not noticed that tool on McMasters before - dashed handy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 13 December , 2015 Share Posted 13 December , 2015 Further relevant material here: 12th Bn Kings Royal Rifle Corps - Feb 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 15 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 15 December , 2015 Thanks for that reference - there is lots to take in there, but the events are mostly too early in the year to relate to my uncle's demise. Very useful for background and 'colour'though.. Daggers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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