andrew.gillsfc Posted 18 December , 2012 Share Posted 18 December , 2012 Hi I have purchased the war diary for the 12th Bn Kings Royal Rifle Corps but it does not confirm where in the Ypres Salient it was on 12 February 1916, is anyone able to please help me? I am guessing it might have been involved in a diversionary attack but the closest one to this date did not commence until 14 February. Thanks Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted 18 December , 2012 Share Posted 18 December , 2012 Andrew According to divisional history 60th brigade moved into trenches on the night of 11/12th Feb. Two brigades of the division covered an area on the north side of Ypres from a point 1500yds due north of St Jean to the canal bank about 1000yds south east of Boesinghe. It mentions trenches just south-east of Krupp farm. 12 R.B.were on the left of the front line taking over from 9th K.R.R.C. the relief started at about 9pm. Hope this helps John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 18 December , 2012 Share Posted 18 December , 2012 War Diary is rather faded! My copy has ... 11th Febry. PILKEM ROAD Relieved 9th R.B. [14th Division] in Support Trenches on YSER CANAL, N.E. of YPRES Ma[p?] S[heet?] 28 Belgium. During night enemy made bombing attack on Advanced Bombing Post held by 12th R.B. but were driven out with the assistance of 2 sections of our grenadiers. 12th Febry. Enemy quiet during morning but terrific bombardment in the afternoon, followed by 2 infantry attacks both of which were easily repulsed. 13th & 14th Febry. Artillery d[uties?] during day 15th Febry. Relieved 12th R.B. in front line and Advanced Posts. In right hand margin - Casualties 11-19 Feb 1 Officer (Capt O.C. RADFORD) Wounded 1 Officer (2Lt H PRATT) Missing 16 O.R. Killed 65 Wounded 30 Missing Content in squared brackets I'm not 100% certain about. I was about to go and check Inglefield, but John's beaten me to it I'll have a look in the 1916 KRRC Chronicle later. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 18 December , 2012 Share Posted 18 December , 2012 <snip> 12 R.B.were on the left of the front line taking over from 9th K.R.R.C. the relief started at about 9pm. <snip> So if 12/KRRC were in a position to supply two sections of grenadiers to assist 12/RB (see War Diary), they were most likely in the support line directly behind 12/RB on the left of the divisional frontage described by Inglefield in John's post. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew.gillsfc Posted 18 December , 2012 Author Share Posted 18 December , 2012 Thanks for all your help, much appreciated. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 18 December , 2012 Share Posted 18 December , 2012 I guess this has to do with the medal issued to R2776 Pte Benjamin Davies, 12 KRRC who was KIA 12/02/16 that was sold yesterday? Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 19 December , 2012 Share Posted 19 December , 2012 I guess this has to do with the medal issued to R2776 Pte Benjamin Davies, 12 KRRC who was KIA 12/02/16 that was sold yesterday? Tim L. Oh well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagius Posted 11 December , 2015 Share Posted 11 December , 2015 Just discovered this interesting thread. I've been looking at that same page of the 12th KRRC War Diary with reference to the 19th Feb entry when 1 officer and 30 OR were captured.... About 4pm enemy surprised and captured small Advance Post, held by us, taking (it is believed) 1 officer and 30 other ranks prisoner. Grandfather of a friend was 1 of the 30 OR . Cpl William George Dedman. POW in Soltau and Guissen we think from his records (rather obscured). I had missed that bit in the right hand margin that shows 2Lt H Pratt and 30 missing ... that's the group captured on 19th. So now I can look up H Pratt to try and see what happened next. Can anyone tell me about the Advanced Post ? How far forward from the main front line was it? And was it on the road to Pilkem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 11 December , 2015 Share Posted 11 December , 2015 pagius, I have the officer file from Kew for 2Lt B R C Read of 12th RB. He was captured on this day and wrote a report of his capture on repatriation. It accounts for himself and 30 men captured when the Germans rushed their post and sounds alike to an account mentioned in the divisional history. 12th RB had reportedly been relieved from here a few days before. I'm not sure that a 12th RB officer would be in charge of a KRRC post though? Pratt is mentioned as being captured in some of the divisional diaries as well but I cannot trace an officer's file to him to confirm his account. Apologies if this muddies the waters though. Kind regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagius Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 Hi Colin That's most interesting. Do you have a copy of Lt Read's repatriation report that you can share with me? I was planning to go to Kew soon to get records for my great-uncles and thought I'd add a search for Lt Pratt's report to my list. My starting point was researching my friend's grandfather. His records (William George Dedman of 12th KRRC) say that he was captured on 19th Feb so when I then found the page in 12th KRRC diary for 19th saying "About 4pm enemy surprised and captured small Advance Post, held by us, taking (it is believed) 1 officer and 30 other ranks prisoner." and then Lt Pratt and 30 OR stated as missing in the side margin I assumed that all tied up nicely. I then found Lt Pratt in the ICRC records which confirms his capture on 19th Feb. So you're saying Lt Read's account is about the capture of another 30 men in the 12 RB (which I understand are different but closely linked to the 12th KRRC) ? I'd like to sort out this tangle! best wishes Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagius Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 Hi Colin Just found Read's Officer POW record on Ancestry which says date missing 14th Feb. So was this another incident to the one I'm looking into? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 12th RB were re-inforced during the morning of the 12th February due to a suspected attack. They were re-inforced by 3 Grenadier sections from 12th KRRC, 3 Grenadier sections from 6th KSLI and 2 Platoons 12th KRRC. The Garrison in Fargate was increased and 1 Grenade section on the extremity of our line on the west bank of the canal where our line joins the French. A little later another 40 bombers were sent to the 12th RB from the Oxs & Bucks L.I.. lieut. B.R.C. Read was apparently captured shortly after relief of the garrison (11/12th) in F.31. 5 men were found later in a shell crater that explained that they had been overrun. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagius Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 Ok, it seems there are two capture incidents very near each other and in the same place. Lt Read of the 12th RB with a group of men on 12th Feb 1916. Then after they were relieved by 12th KRRC on 15th , Lt Pratt and 30 men of 12 KRRC were captured at 4pm on 19th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 Gents Apologies; an error on my part; I must have got confused between the thread title and the dates being discussed. Peter, As recompense, if you can give me a definite WO339 file reference I'm happy to look it up and send you a copy when I get to Kew for a day in the week before Xmas. I've also sent you two reports on the incident on the 19th from the 60th Bde Diary. Many apologies for the confusion. Kind regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagius Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 Thanks, Colin, for the reports that you emailed me. I now know that my friend's grandfather was at trench F.34 and that has now led me to this site... http://www.mausershooters.org/diggers/E/activiteiten/yorkshire-trench/restauratie.htm Quite amazing what can be found on-line given a few clues! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 XXth Report regarding the attack on F.34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 The link you have placed on your post concerns a different time, the 4th Divisions attack by the 1st Rifle Brigade in July 1915 although the same area. Try Mark's post regarding this attack, you will find pertinent maps of the area. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagius Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 The link I posted is mainly about the Yorkshire trench which was a fall back position after the events of Feb 1916, but it does mention the events of Feb 19th and also shows where F.34 was. But thanks for the link to the extra info , Andy. http://www.mausershooters.org/diggers/E/activiteiten/yorkshire-trench/restauratie.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 13 December , 2015 Share Posted 13 December , 2015 Fine, Then as you seem to have what you want I have no need to put up the 20th Divisions reports covering the 19th, have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 13 December , 2015 Share Posted 13 December , 2015 Just spotted this, but as Andy says, it looks like you're already sorted. There's additional detail and maps from myself (Mark B, not Mark Hone), Colin and Andy covering Fargate Trench and Post F34 in Feb 1916 in this topic here: Left of the Line, April 1916? 12th Battalion, King's Liverpool Reg Let us know if there's anything else you'd like help with. This was my grandfather's battalion. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagius Posted 13 December , 2015 Share Posted 13 December , 2015 Thanks all for the links and extra info, especially Colin who has emailed me a number of relevant and fascinating jpgs. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 14 December , 2015 Share Posted 14 December , 2015 Just discovered this interesting thread. I've been looking at that same page of the 12th KRRC War Diary with reference to the 19th Feb entry when 1 officer and 30 OR were captured.... About 4pm enemy surprised and captured small Advance Post, held by us, taking (it is believed) 1 officer and 30 other ranks prisoner. Grandfather of a friend was 1 of the 30 OR . Cpl William George Dedman. POW in Soltau and Guissen we think from his records (rather obscured). I had missed that bit in the right hand margin that shows 2Lt H Pratt and 30 missing ... that's the group captured on 19th. So now I can look up H Pratt to try and see what happened next. Does your friend have any further information about Cpl Dedman's capture at F34 on the 19th? There is a possibility that my grandfather may have been among the 10 OR manning F33 next door who managed to escape capture by wading down a water-filled ditch. This fits certain facts of one of my grandfather's old Great War stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagius Posted 14 December , 2015 Share Posted 14 December , 2015 Hi Mark Sadly, as is the way with most ORs, we never get to see them mentioned by name or hear their story unless they've written something down or passed a story down through the family. So all my friend knows is that he was in the 12th KRRC and was a POW ...and also lied about his age. When he enrolled in Aug 1914 he said he was 19yrs 7 mths when he was really 17yrs 7 months, and so just short of 20 yrs old when he was taken prisoner in Feb 1916. I can now tell her precisely where he was captured and give her the reports on the events of 19th Feb. But what I find strange is that there's no mention of the men in F34 being taken prisoner in either the Curtis report (posted above) or Lt Col Paine's report (attached). It's only that one line in the 12th KRRC diary (with the 'it is believed' comment) , the name and numbers in the margin then finding the records for Lt Pratt and Cpl Dedman that confirms the capture of the men in F34 on 19th. We are left to read between the lines in the Curtis report that by 7:30pm German working parties were in F34 and that our artillery started to shell F34. Hopefully the commanders had concluded that the men in F34 had been taken away by then and that therefore they weren't firing at their own men! Then there's Colin telling us (above) about Lt Read of 12th RB being captured on the 12th Feb. Again, no mention of anyone being taken prisoner in the 12th Feb report (just before the 19th Feb reports in XXth Div diary) and we just get this from Read's repatriation report that Colin got from Kew and kindly emailed me. He doesn't mention F34 by name but just 'an advanced post' and a description that matches F34 ie how far away the German trenches were , the connecting sap etc. It would appear that there were two very similar attacks on F34 7 days apart. I think it was not long after this that they decided to abandon these trenches and pull back to the Yorkshire Trench line (just east of the Yser Canal). Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagius Posted 14 December , 2015 Share Posted 14 December , 2015 I think this is where F32-F35 were in Feb 1916.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 14 December , 2015 Share Posted 14 December , 2015 You don't need to think Peter - all these points are marked clearly (and contemporaneously) on the maps in the other topics to which we have posted links above! Also the section from the 20th (Light) Division history I transcribed in one of those topics gives an excellent, clear topographical description of the sector, the condition of the defences and its trench nomenclature. Your F32 is about 100m NE of its actual position. The others are roughly correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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