What happened to the 9th btn RB

[gwendraith]

Sorry this is wordy but I thought it was worth telling.

As some of you know,I've been researching my great Uncle Alex for several months (S/10445 Rifleman John Alexander Evans 9^th btn Rifle Brigade). I found his service records, had a bit of a hiccup in getting my brain around which regiment he was with (thanks for all your help in the differences between the Rifle Brigade and the London Rifle Brigade btns) and discovered he had a grave in Combles Communal Cemetery Ext.

According to his service records he was killed in action on 13^th September1916. The CWGC also list his date of death as 13^thSeptember 1916. The war diary for 9^th btn RB are practically empty for mid September apart from listing the names of all the officers killed on the 15^th. On the 13^th the btn were in camp which seemed a bit at odds with KIA.

I wrote to the CWGC to see if they had more information and they gave me a map reference of where he was buried first on the battlefield. This turned out to be just short of Bulls Road between Lesbeoufs and Flers and only 2.5 miles from Combles. It seemed to me much more likely that he was killed on the 15^th on the first day of the battle of Flers-Courcelette. I was really frustrated that I didn't know what happened and then I thought I'd nip to London to the NA and look at the war diaries of the btns with 9^th RB on that day (9^th KRRC, 5^th KSLI and 5^th Ox and Bucks LI). Nothing of note in the KSLI and Ox and Bucks LI other than a mention of the tanks but the major of the 9th KRRC kept a brilliant diary of the day and saw it all from the advantage point of following the 9^th RB.

Here's the extracts from 9th btn KRRC diary for 15th September 1916:

6.20am.Btn moved from Montauban Alley to York Alley behind 9th btn RB.

8am.The 9th btn RB appeared to be bearing away too far to their right and were only in front of the right half of "A" company.

8.15am. Btn passed through SWITCH TRENCH without stopping. Machine gun fire from Lesboeufs area passing over their heads.

8.30am -8.45am. The btn continued to advance without stopping and passed through GAPTRENCH on the heels of 9th btn RB still bearing off to their right.

9am. Two German field guns firing towards Flers from a position on Sunken Road nearN.32.c.5.2.

Meanwhile 9th btn RB had stopped advancing and had formed a line more or less parallel with GIRD TRENCH, their left being N.32.c.9.0.

About 9.30am. I asked Capt Merewether, then commanding 9th btn RB,what were his intentions. He told me 9th Btn RB intended to attack GIRD TRENCH under barrage of 9th btn KRRC, at the appointed time according to the programme. Seeing as his battalion were very weak I told him that the 9th btn KRRC would advance in close support of the 9th btn RB.

9.30am.The battalion was organised in two lines behind the 9th btn RB ready to advance behind them. Btn HQ established at T.2.c.3.7 from where a good view of the front could be obtained.

9.30am –11.20am. Our guns did not appear to be shelling GIRD TRENCH. Although no friendly shelling on GIRD TRENCH the 9th btn RB tried to advance on this trench but as soon as they got on the rising ground in front of them a hostile machine gun situated at about N.32.d.9.2 prevented them advancing. All their remaining officers (approx16 including Capt. Merewether) were killed bar one very junior officer and their attack failed. Seeing this I assumed command of the very small remainder of the 9th btn RB.

The total number left of the 9th KRRC and the small number of 9th RB were about 350.

Judging by the location of the temporary battlefield burial of great uncle Alex he was alive after they passed over at GAP TRENCH at 8.30am - 8.45am. I believe he was killed between 9.30am and 11.20am most likely from the machine gun fire just short of Bulls Road. Aged 19.

In their orders was this:

19. The word "retire" will NOT be used under any circumstances.

20. All ranks are to be warned that men returning from the firing line withso called "shell-shock" or slight scratches will be tried by court martial and severely dealt with.

Isn't that awfully sad? Lambs to the slaughter. I'm pleased I have managed to uncover his story and I'm so looking forward to visiting his grave in June.

Holly

[purvis15]

Hello Gwendraith

Just thought you should know I have been doing some research on some family members involved in WWI two of whom served in 9th Battalion Rifle Brigade. Capt John Purvis died 25th September 1915 in the attack on Bellewaerde Ridge leading B Company. His father then lobbied hard and age 56 got into the Rifle Brigade from the Naval Reserve and also commanded B Company 9th Battalion Rifle Brigade. A bit spooky but I guess he wanted to understand what had happened to his son.

Anyway he - Capt William "Herbert" Purvis - was I think leading B Company on 15th September and was injured quite badly (thus the reference to all officers being killed above) but ironically lived to a ripe old age. He might have been part of the reason they kept veering to the right... I suspect figuring out where you were going in a mud/crater/trench landscape under fire was quite difficult.

My father and I recently found his memoirs and he gives quite a bit of detail on how the attack on Delville Wood went but I haven't had a chance to read them yet. I am sure he won't mention too many names and it is old fashioned hand writing, but if I find anything of interest I'll come back and post.

I suspect the command not to use the word 'retire' was due to the fact that once uttered everyone wants to believe it is true and it becomes self-fulfilling. Sometimes the withdrawal is the most dangerous bit, and I am also sure by this stage of the war that a number of people were taking every opportunity to get out of the fight so I guess they had to be pretty harsh to get people to keep going through the nightmare.

all best, Rob

[gwendraith]

Hi Rob

So very sorry not to have replied to this but for some reason I seemed to have not received an emailed alert or I missed it somehow. I found it by Googling something else and this came up!

Surprised at your 56 year old relative joining up but yes, I think you are probably right about his reasons. Tragic to lose a son in that way. Very interesting about Captain Purvis. The KRRC war diary said one officer survived. I'm pleased he lived to a ripe old age but what memories he must have had. Did you find anything interesting in his memoirs?

For my own part I have found a huge amount about my great uncle Alex and I'm now almost an expert on WW1 I have his birth and death certificates,service records, his burial documents and details of how he was identified (his identification disc and a watch engraved with his reg. no. and name.) He was also buried in a grave with another soldier from the RB but he remained unidentified, as most were. I was lucky that Alex was identified. I visited his grave in Combles and the site where he died and had his battlefield grave, in June 2012, now beautiful quiet countryside with crops and poppies. The owner of the B&B where I stayed has recently laid a wreath on his grave for me for the 98th anniversary of his death. He also had his name read out at the Tower of London last Post ceremony on Oct 3rd and I have bought a ceramic poppy. My friend also bought me one so I will have one for my uncle George who was executed in Greece by Germans in 1944 aged 23 along with 5 others from his SBS unit (a now famous mission published in a book - long story!). Anyway, I'm pleased I have managed to have Alex remembered when he would have just disappeared into history had I not got bitten with the genealogy and WW1 bug.

Thank you for your comment and once again apologies for not replying before now.

Best regards,

Holly

[MBrockway]

The 15 Sep 1916 action was also where Evelyn Southwell fell.

See here: Lt EHL Southwell, 9th Rifle Brigade
and also Andy's Topic on this man and his great friend, Malcolm White: Two Men - One Memorial, The Story of two Shrewsbury Schoolteachers


Lt Evelyn HL Southwell, 9th Rifle Brigade,
Killed in action 15 Sep 1916 at the Battle of Flers/Courcelette on the Somme.
  

  

[Picture courtesy of Richard Van Emden]                                                                                                      [Memorial Window in Worcester Cathedral]

Mark

Edited 8 August , 2017 by MBrockway
Disconnected pictures re-linked to new Gallery

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Holly & Rob,

Good to see you back on the forum posting. Holly, the Intelligence Officer of the 9th KRRC wrote a limited edition book (50 copies) after the war some of which might help you. The Brigade diary and the Divisional HQ Diary appendices also help a little on a higher level. Away from home presently until late Friday, but on my return home I will go through his book for you.

Nothing of note in the Brigade diary for the 13th, as per the 9th RB diary, only mentions that the officers were attending a meeting regarding the forthcoming action on the 15th but through the appendices you can trace the battalions movements, march order from camp etc.

Holly, If you look at his Army Form B.103 in his service records it originally states Killed in action on 15/9/16 but then the entry is penciled through with the new date of 13/9/16 placed there. However on his description on recruitment it clearly states 13/9/16. Yet, despite what the CWGC records state, they have his headstone marked as 15/9/16.

If you would like the Brigade diary let me know and I will e-mail it to you along with the 14th Division HQ diary although the appendices are more use in this diary and there are a lot of them.

Andy

[purvis15]

Sorry this is wordy but I thought it was worth telling.

As some of you know,I've been researching my great Uncle Alex for several months (S/10445 Rifleman John Alexander Evans 9^th btn Rifle Brigade). I found his service records, had a bit of a hiccup in getting my brain around which regiment he was with (thanks for all your help in the differences between the Rifle Brigade and the London Rifle Brigade btns) and discovered he had a grave in Combles Communal Cemetery Ext.

According to his service records he was killed in action on 13^th September1916. The CWGC also list his date of death as 13^thSeptember 1916. The war diary for 9^th btn RB are practically empty for mid September apart from listing the names of all the officers killed on the 15^th. On the 13^th the btn were in camp which seemed a bit at odds with KIA.

I wrote to the CWGC to see if they had more information and they gave me a map reference of where he was buried first on the battlefield. This turned out to be just short of Bulls Road between Lesbeoufs and Flers and only 2.5 miles from Combles. It seemed to me much more likely that he was killed on the 15^th on the first day of the battle of Flers-Courcelette. I was really frustrated that I didn't know what happened and then I thought I'd nip to London to the NA and look at the war diaries of the btns with 9^th RB on that day (9^th KRRC, 5^th KSLI and 5^th Ox and Bucks LI). Nothing of note in the KSLI and Ox and Bucks LI other than a mention of the tanks but the major of the 9th KRRC kept a brilliant diary of the day and saw it all from the advantage point of following the 9^th RB.

Hi Holly

Sorry about the time this has taken, but it has taken a long series of rainy days to allow me to plough through the very great amount of stuff I have found in the trunk of my ancestor W Herbert Purvis and I kept my eyes open for your Great Uncle's name and have made a discovery. After the death of his son (who served in 9th Bn RB) in 1915, Herbert agitated to join the army and 9th Btn in particular despite being 57. Long story short he was commanding B Coy of 9th Bn RB on the day of the Delville Wood (Flers Courcellette) attack of 15th September. I have his official account of the attack from his orders pad written up the next day (from hospital) which is quite hard to read (faint pencil) but also a memoir he wrote later about the role of B Coy in the battle. I also have his trench battle map he carried on the day with the various objectives on it.

More interestingly for you I found some rough orders pad papers with the handwritten casualty lists for B Coy for the day. A 10445 Rfn Evans, J is on the list with K next to his name (others have K, W, D of W or M next to theirs for killed, wounded, died of wounds or missing). It appears he has put dots next to some of the letters and ticks next to others perhaps to indicate if he witnessed it himself (?). There is a tick next to your Great Uncle's name. So it would appear he was in B company that day. I still have Herbert's whistle and walking stick he carried that day (the stick with his dried blood on it). Perhaps he used the whistle to signal going over the top and sadly would have been one of the last things your Gt Uncle heard. Anyway I hope this clarifies that as far as the local command were concerned your Gt Uncle did die on the 15th in the main attack as I am sure he would not have been on this list if he had been killed two days earlier.

In his memoir Herbert records they were in bivouac at Fricourt on the 12th - 14th Sep preparing for the attack and no mention of any trouble. They moved up to York trench on the evening of the 14th and I think zero hour was 6.20am on the 15th. Their objective appears to have been 'Gird trench'. It seems they failed to reach this but did penetrate the German lines by about 2 miles which sounds like alot by the standards of the time. Over half the battalion became casualties including the Bn commanding officer and 2ic. Overall B Coy lost 18 killed, 12 missing presumed killed and 36 wounded NCOs and men and 3 officers. Herbert was hit by machine gun fire but survived despite his advanced age. It was a real stand up fight, going straight into incredibly heavy fire.

Anyway I hope that gives you some idea of what your very brave Great Uncle went through.

all best, Rob

[gwendraith]

Hi Rob, thanks for the message and for this post with it's great information. I noticed that W Herbert Purvis was on the casualty list in the 9th Bn RB war diary on the day and I'm glad he survived but it's sad that his son had died earlier in the war. It's brilliant that you have his handwritten account and that he kept such good records (I'm a tad envious). That you have been able to tell me that my great uncle was in B Coy on that day and that he possibly heard Herbert's whistle is wonderful and is another piece of his story. All these small details really gives me an insight into his final hours. You have a real piece of history in having Herbert's whistle and stick and that trench map! All I have is a colourful postcard of a RB soldier with the words "Don't be alarmed, the Rifle Brigade are on guard at Queenborough", with a hand written message by my great uncle to my grandfather (his elder brother). Queenborough, I think, was a part of the Thames and Medway garrison for the 6th Reserve Bn.

I have found out quite a lot over the months. The information in Herbert's records matches with what little is in the 9th Bn RB diary for the day (which as you know is very little) with regards their overnight march to Delville Wood. The 9th Bn KRRC diary also confirms zero hour being 6.20am, starting from York Trench, their objective being to gain ground N.E. of Gird Support and to dig in a 'line of trench'.The 9th Bn KRRC were directly behind the 9th Bn RB at 6.20am with the 5th Oxf & Bucks L.I to their left and Guards Div to their right. As they were following the 9th Bn RB it makes sense that Gird Trench was the RB's objective. The 5th Oxf & Bucks L.I. were to take Gueudecourt and the Guards Division to take Lesboeufs. At about 9.30am the KRRC officer spoke with Capt Merewether, then commanding the RB, who told him the RB's intention was to attack Gird Trench at the appointed time. As the RB had been quite badly weakened by that point the 9th Bn KRRC formed two lines behind the 9th Bn RB and they advanced in close support of the RB. Although the promised friendly barrage by field guns didn't materialise the RB continued it's advance and apparently their line had veered to the right. According to the KRRC officer's account at about 11.20am the RB advanced up a slight rise in the ground and a German machine gun situated at N.32.d.9.2 prevented them advancing further and all the remainder of the officers except one junior officer were killed including poor Capt. Merewether. As I have the map reference where my great uncle was buried on the battlefield, which is not far from the machine gun post, I have calculated that my great uncle probably died from that machine gun fire between 11am and 11.20am but of course I will never be certain. An unidentified RB soldier was buried in the same grave as him on the battlefield and is now buried beside him at Combles. My great uncle was identified by his dog tag and a watch engraved with his service number and name.

Isn't it amazing how much can be pieced together almost 100 years after the battle? I'm very proud of all those who fought. I am going to France with one of my sons and his partner next September for the centenary of the battle and my great uncle's death.

Once again thank you so much for remembering about my great uncle and taking the time to write to me, Rob.

Kind regards, Holly

[gwendraith]

I didn't mention that Alex's grave at Combles has always had the correct date of death (15th) and it's the service records that were wrong. The CWGC have added his parents names and his age (19) to his records which pleased me no end. I had to send evidence of the connection as his enlistment name wasn't the same as his given name (John Alexander Evans on the records but Alexander Arthur John Evans is his correct name.). No idea why he enlisted with an incorrect name but thankfully he gave his father as next-of-kin at the family address and all his siblings, including his twin brother, are named in the surviving relatives document in his records. That postcard, signed Alex, matches his signature on his enlistment form with the very distinctive Alex part of Alexander. I was lucky to find his service records by playing around with the names in the search fields. The best thing about the items that he was identified with is that the watch had his name as S/10445 A Evans which of course was correct so maybe he himself or his father or another relative bought the watch and had it engraved and natually put his correct first initial. Anyway, he's no longer a soldier with no connections lying in the corner of a cemetery in France.

[purvis15]

Hi Holly - Its a pleasure to be able to help. I am very lucky to have all the stuff Herbert left behind - clearly he made up a box of stuff about his and his son's experiences for posterity which is great. It could easily have been thrown out but our family hoarding instinct saved it.

It is great what we can learn from each other on this forum - been a real education. I am off next week with my Dad and son to Ypres and the Somme to revisit the battlefields that Herbert and his son fought over and I am taking his whistle and I will try and find the jump off point near Ginchy and give it a blow (albeit I don't think it will be at 6.20am!)

Incidentally Herbert's account of the battle and his copy of the battle map show that 9th RB were exactly where they should be during the attack. At 10.00 am he took a bearing from the church steeple at Guedecourt from Gas Alley where it joined the communications trench running North/South of 359 degrees true. He also shows where Capt Merewether fell in that area just short of Bulls Road at 10.40 am and Herbert was hit 30-60 yards further East at 10.45am. Herbert was an ex naval officer and experienced world traveller and his navigation was likely to have been good - the CO had tasked him with the navigation for the attack.

He does note that towards the later stages of the attack that all the men were mixed up with KRRC and that he had lost many of his own by this point and he was leading a mixed bunch of companies and units. From the limit of the advance he tried a couple of times to get them to advance into the Bulls Road trench but they wouldn't follow him and he found himself advancing alone, so he had to go back and tell them to link up their shell holes in a scrape trench. He was hit soon after. He felt that if they had gone for it the first time they could have taken Bulls Road as the Germans looked like they wanted to surrender at that point but returned to their guns when they saw the attack was stalling - conjecture I know, but had they done this they would have achieved all their objectives which would have been an even greater achievement for the time.

[MBrockway]

No idea why he enlisted with an incorrect name

My own grandfather's correct name was William John Brockway, but all his army records have him only as John Brockway and I believe he was actually known as 'Jack'. He was just 'grandpa tick-tock' (he was a watchmaker!) to all of us ... with no first name!

I've no idea why he dropped the 'William'.

[gwendraith]

Hi Holly - Its a pleasure to be able to help. I am very lucky to have all the stuff Herbert left behind - clearly he made up a box of stuff about his and his son's experiences for posterity which is great. It could easily have been thrown out but our family hoarding instinct saved it.

It is great what we can learn from each other on this forum - been a real education. I am off next week with my Dad and son to Ypres and the Somme to revisit the battlefields that Herbert and his son fought over and I am taking his whistle and I will try and find the jump off point near Ginchy and give it a blow (albeit I don't think it will be at 6.20am!)....

Enjoy your trip, I will listen for the whistle

Having read the KRRC officer's write up again, they were on the heels of the 9th Bn RB and at 8.30am - 8.45am and the 9th Bn RB were veering off to the right. At 9am the RB stopped their advance and formed a line roughly parallel with Gird Trench with N.32.c.9.0 to their left. I assume at that point they then corrected the line. The machine gun post was at N.32.d.9.2 and it looks like the 9th Bn RB were caught in the firing line as they went up the rising ground. There is a vantage point on Bulls Road where the German machine gun post was positioned (where Needle Trench crossed Bulls Road). Using Google WW1 trench maps overlay and a distance tool (isn't the Internet great?) I more or less found the position of Alex and others' battleground grave site about 500 yards from Bulls Road. It was very moving standing there in the peace of the countryside looking down that meadow and imagining the carnage all those years ago. Next year I hope to be able to walk down a close by track to see the spot closer up and place a small wooden poppy cross. So, Herbert was correct in his assertion that Capt. Merewether fell just short of Bulls Road according to my information and calculations. Herbert clearly was an experienced and most likely a wise officer due to his age and a very brave man. The account I have also mentioned that several stragglers from other units especially from the Guards joined them and many had no idea where their Bns were. They were mainly put in Gas Trench for the time being. As Herbert says they were pretty much a mixed bunch. The KRRC officer claims that the attack halted because of the failure of the friendly field guns barrage which had a part to play in the decimation of the 9th Bn RB, and that it would take time to organise getting another barrage to allow them to continue at that point. It sounds absolutely horrendous and I feel so much for them all who tried so hard. Thank heaven all those officers kept good notes. They could never have imagined how their words have helped future generations to understand what went on and discover what happened to their ancestors.

[gwendraith]

My own grandfather's correct name was William John Brockway, but all his army records have him only as John Brockway and I believe he was actually known as 'Jack'. He was just 'grandpa tick-tock' (he was a watchmaker!) to all of us ... with no first name!

I've no idea why he dropped the 'William'.

Isn't it strange how that happened so often? They must have done it deliberately as they signed their name on the enlistment forms. My great uncle had left home at 17 at a time when all his unmarried siblings were still at home inclusing his twin brother, so I wonder if there was an argument and rift developed between him and the family for some reason and he decided to sign up under a different name to throw his family off the scent. Silly boy, he still named his father as next-of-kin at the family address. Your grandfather will no doubt have had his own reasons. I love his family pet name of grandpa tick-tock

[purvis15]

Enjoy your trip, I will listen for the whistle

Having read the KRRC officer's write up again, they were on the heels of the 9th Bn RB and at 8.30am - 8.45am and the 9th Bn RB were veering off to the right. At 9am the RB stopped their advance and formed a line roughly parallel with Gird Trench with N.32.c.9.0 to their left. I assume at that point they then corrected the line. The machine gun post was at N.32.d.9.2 and it looks like the 9th Bn RB were caught in the firing line as they went up the rising ground. There is a vantage point on Bulls Road where the German machine gun post was positioned (where Needle Trench crossed Bulls Road). Using Google WW1 trench maps overlay and a distance tool (isn't the Internet great?) I more or less found the position of Alex and others' battleground grave site about 500 yards from Bulls Road. It was very moving standing there in the peace of the countryside looking down that meadow and imagining the carnage all those years ago. Next year I hope to be able to walk down a close by track to see the spot closer up and place a small wooden poppy cross. So, Herbert was correct in his assertion that Capt. Merewether fell just short of Bulls Road according to my information and calculations. Herbert clearly was an experienced and most likely a wise officer due to his age and a very brave man. The account I have also mentioned that several stragglers from other units especially from the Guards joined them and many had no idea where their Bns were. They were mainly put in Gas Trench for the time being. As Herbert says they were pretty much a mixed bunch. The KRRC officer claims that the attack halted because of the failure of the friendly field guns barrage which had a part to play in the decimation of the 9th Bn RB, and that it would take time to organise getting another barrage to allow them to continue at that point. It sounds absolutely horrendous and I feel so much for them all who tried so hard. Thank heaven all those officers kept good notes. They could never have imagined how their words have helped future generations to understand what went on and discover what happened to their ancestors.

Herbert notes the lack of a barrage on Bulls Road in his After Action Report so either it had moved on or never happened (or landed short or long). I need to get to terms with this mapping technology as when I visited I was just using Herbert's trench map and trying to orientate it to the ground, but fortunately the woods, towns, roads are often unchanged in position. Where do you go to get it?

According to Herbert's trench map they really were quite close to the objective when they stopped and had to just link up their shell holes and sit tight. Interestingly in the Bulls Road cemetery I didn't see many Rifle Brigade graves, but did see alot of KRRC - I didn't check every grave so I may have missed a row with lots of RB in it. Your Gt Uncle was taken to Combles - were there many other RB there with him?

I checked names of the other officers killed that day such as Merewether, Morris, Southwell but couldn't find them at Delville Wood cemetery and Merewether was not in Bulls Road cemetery. We didn't get to Combles on account of visiting so many others.

[gwendraith]

I need to get to terms with this mapping technology as when I visited I was just using Herbert's trench map and trying to orientate it to the ground, but fortunately the woods, towns, roads are often unchanged in position. Where do you go to get it?

According to Herbert's trench map they really were quite close to the objective when they stopped and had to just link up their shell holes and sit tight. Interestingly in the Bulls Road cemetery I didn't see many Rifle Brigade graves, but did see alot of KRRC - I didn't check every grave so I may have missed a row with lots of RB in it. Your Gt Uncle was taken to Combles - were there many other RB there with him?

I checked names of the other officers killed that day such as Merewether, Morris, Southwell but couldn't find them at Delville Wood cemetery and Merewether was not in Bulls Road cemetery. We didn't get to Combles on account of visiting so many others.

I plot my own map references and it's easy once you get the hang of it. The following site tells you how...

http://www.1914-1918.net/trench_maps.htm

From that day on 15th September 1916 I believe there are only two named RB graves at Combles, my great uncle and L/Cpl Frederick Coster but there are un-named RB graves there including the soldier buried in the same grave as my great uncle Alex on the battlefield. He now lies next to Alex at Combles in a row of RB graves where Alex is the only one named. Fifteen more killed that day are buried at several other cemeteries such as Flers and Serre Road No. 2. I think there are 26 named graves at LesBoeufs Guards' cemetery and 20 more at Delville Wood, Capt Merewether and Capt. Southwell were not identified and are named on the Thiepval Memorial with another 225 from the RB for that day. Lieut. Colonel Morris died of his wounds on 18th September and is buried at Grove Town Cemetery, Meaulte, just south of the town of Albert. I feel immensely fortunate that my great uncle is one of the approx third who were identified. There are no identified RB graves at Bull's Road as far as I'm aware. They managed to identify regiments by insignia and cap badges and officer uniforms but any personal identification was often lost through shell damage so many are buried in the "unknown" graves and named at Thiepval.

[Banstead100]

Hi Rob,

I don't suppose there is any mention of another Herbert, Captain Herbert Garton, in Captain Purvis's memoirs is there? He was one of the officers of the 9th RB who were killed on 15th September 1916 and will be commemorated this week on the 100th anniversary of his death, at All Saints, Banstead, Surrey.

Kind Regards,

 

James

[Guest patparsons]

Hi James,

Sorry for jumping in here! My great uncle was also in 9RB and was also killed on this fateful day. Captain Garton was OC 'C' Company and I have a picture of him (posted in the Daily Mail on 1 July - you may have see it?). My Great Uncle, Captain Eric Parsons, was OC 'A' Company, Captain Merewether was OC 'D' Company and of course Captain Purvis was OC 'B' Company. All brother officers and company commanders together. I will be remembering Eric - and the others - on Wednesday night when I will be bivouacking in the field very close to where I believe he was killed. Eric could have been my grandfather as he was engaged to my grandmother (she married his younger brother after Eric was killed) and I feel that I know him now! I've been studying this battle for years!

I hope your commemoration for Captain Garton goes well. I am happy that these great men have not been forgotten!

Pat 

[Banstead100]

Hi Pat,

Good to hear from you and feel free to jump in, that's what forums are for!  I hadn't seen that photo but have found it now, many thanks for that. We'll be tolling a bell 100 times in Herbert's honour at noon (well, probably a few minutes after noon as I always end up talking about the men for too long) and I'll make sure we dedicate it not just to him but to those mentioned on this thread and all the other men of the 9th that fell that day.

Kind Regards,

 

James

[Banstead100]

And a short version of Captain Garton's story is now available here:

http://www.surreyinthegreatwar.org.uk/story/captain-herbert-westlake-garton-killed-in-action-15th-september-1916/

[KRMatthews]

Wow!!! I am loving all this information- you are amazing! My Great Grandfather Alfred John Payne (S/12889) Died on the 15/9/16 (He was declared as missing and then it says on his service records it was Accepted as Killed in Action on 25/9/16 and that is what is on the cwcg as date of death) However, reading what you have all said about the events of the 15th, I can be pretty sure that he would have sadly died on the 15th like so many. I am keen to know if anyone has any records of my GGF in diaries etc- I have signed up to Ancestry but they do not have the 9th's diaries on there. Also I'm a bit confused..... most of the battalion seem to be remembered at T.Memorial, but my GGF is at Arras Memorial. There are two Alfred John Payne's on the CWCG site, only one with the correct service number (S/12889) and the other, which actually has the correct date of 15/9/16, same full name but different service number! Can this potentially be a mistake?!

[KRMatthews]

Also came across this account of what the New Zealand battalion's experienced on the 15th Sept as well

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/battle-of-the-somme-98-years-ago-today.215816/#post-7436317

 

[KRMatthews]

5 minutes ago, KRMatthews said:

Also came across this account of what the New Zealand battalion's experienced on the 15th Sept as well

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/battle-of-the-somme-98-years-ago-today.215816/#post-7436317

 

 

Actually very harrowing of what they must have experienced on the 15th and the loneliness/depletion that day had on all Allied battalions 

[KRMatthews]

Found the following images after searching on Twitter but it wont let me embed them for some reasons found at... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3666866/Relaxing-carnage-Heartbreaking-photos-troops-eve-Somme-100-years-ago.html

 

Two images show:

A welcome rest: Exhausted soldiers of the 9th Rifle Brigade take a break — and a chance to have a smoke — in a field away from the front line. From left, Second Lieutenant Walter Elliott, who was killed on November 20, 1916, Second Lieutenant Roger Kirkpatrick, wounded (date unknown), Captain Herbert Garton, who was killed on September 15, 1916, Lieutenant Evelyn Southwell, killed on September 15, 1916, and Second Lieutenant Herman Kiek, wounded on April 27, 1918. Southwell told his mother in a letter he was so tired he fell asleep while marching

A chance to wash: Officers of the 9th Rifle Brigade bathing in a stream behind the lines are (from left, excluding obscured faces): Captain Arthur Mckinstry — wounded, Second Lieutenant William Hesseltine, killed August 21, 1916, Captain William Purvis, wounded September 15, 1916, Second Lieutenant Joseph Buckley, killed December 23, 1917, Lieutenant Morris Heycock, wounded August 22, 1916, Captain Eric Parsons, killed September 15, 1916, Second Lieutenant Sidney Smith (in background) killed August 25, 1916, and Second Lieutenant Walter Elliott, killed November 20, 1916
 

[MBrockway]

These are also pictures from the RB album in the possession of Richard Van Emden of this parish.  They have been colourised: the originals are black and white - see my Post #4 above where I have now re-linked the lost images that got disconnected in the GWF upgrade.

 

We have named the officers shown in another topic here on the Forum,  I'll post a link here when I turn it up again.  Evelyn Southwell is the man smoking.

 

Mark

 

Edited 8 August , 2017 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

UPDATE: Katie - the officers are named in the copy of this picture I posted on last year's anniversary in the other topic you have already found.

Cheers,

Mark

 

Edited 8 August , 2017 by MBrockway

[Banstead100]

Hi Katie,

That looks like a possible mistake on the part of the CWGC re your ggf. He is the only Rifle Brigade man on the Arras Memorial for the whole of September 1916, although he is at least listed on the Rifle Brigade panel so he is with the right regiment. Might be worth writing to them and asking the question as to why he is there and not at Thiepval.

Kind Regards,

 

James