pugaree Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 My wife purchased this belt for me for XMAS and I am hoping that you will able to identify each of the badges, where they were worn and confirm that that they are WW1. Also what typer of belt is it and should it be called a hate or companion belt? Would it be OK to add some of my own collection to it? or should I leave as is? Look forward to your replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugaree Posted 26 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 26 December , 2010 A few more photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 The badge with the motto, Soyes Ferme, is that of the New Zealand Rifle Brigade. The belt contains a mixture of cap badges, shoulder titles, collar badges and assorted buttons. Amongst the obvious ones are, Cap badges: Lancashire Fusiliers, Highland Light Infantry. King's Shropshire Light Infantry. Shoulder titles, Durham Light Infantry, Somerset Light Infantry. Buttons, USA general service, Australian Military Forces, Royal Marines. Collar badges, Canada, USA and a Fusiliers collar badge possibly Lancashire Fusiliers. I have no idea about the EA? in a laurel wreath collar badges at either end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 Is the EA - Irish Army - Army(ee?) Eirean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 Assuming it's a genuine GW artefact (and it looks like it from here), I think it would be wrong to split the items up - I'd keep it as what is: a nice piece of GW ephemera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 Is the EA - Irish Army - Army(ee?) Eirean? No. Regards. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 It's really quite unusual for these belts to run up seemingly intact. Don't do anything to it! Just enjoy owning it for what it is, a nice untouched memento. I have no idea where the term "hate belt" comes from and would be grateful if anyone could elaborate. Is it perhaps some kind of crossover from WW2 collecting? In any case, it's ridiculous - where's the "hate" in a collection of badges? "Souvenir belt" is how I've always referred to these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 Thanks Tom for clearing that up-just a SWAG! Is the EA - Irish Army - Army(ee?) Eirean? No. Regards. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 The "AE" "EA" looks to be a Qualification/Profession Badge usually worn on the Sleeve If "Grumpy" sees this post he may well be able to ID it HB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARABIS Posted 27 December , 2010 Share Posted 27 December , 2010 EA within a laurel wreath was the device used on the buttons of Edinburgh Academy OTC. The cap badge being the head of Homer surrounded by the Greek motto, the whole surrounded by a laurel wreath. The button below the American button looks like a type of livery button. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 27 December , 2010 Share Posted 27 December , 2010 You might want to turn the St.Andrew's Cross and Horn a quarter-turn anti-clockwise. It's sideways. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 December , 2010 Share Posted 27 December , 2010 My wife purchased this belt for me for XMAS and I am hoping that you will able to identify each of the badges, where they were worn and confirm that that they are WW1. Also what typer of belt is it and should it be called a hate or companion belt? Would it be OK to add some of my own collection to it? or should I leave as is? Look forward to your replies. The belts correct name is a 'stable belt' and the one you have acquired is an early example with a leather pocket. It became common in WW1 for both, leather belts (especially that from the 1903 bandolier equipment), and stable belts to be used to hold badges collected from fellow soldiers and for that reason it was often known as a 'souvenir belt'. The term 'hate belt' is really apocryphal and is supposed to relate to fights between soldiers of rival units whereby soldiers downed would have their badges taken as trophies and supposedly affixed on a belt. The evolution of the stable belt is quite interesting: It seems that stable belts began to become popular across the Army as a whole around the turn of the 20th century, although they probably originated with the cavalry a little earlier sometime in the 1880s/1890s. All units at that time had horses on their establishment and those soldiers told off to attend them reported for Stable Parade in Stable Dress which consisted of very high waisted and pocket less breeches, or trousers, held up by braces and collarless, woollen flannel shirts with sleeves rolled up. This was to facilitate the rigorous physical effort and flexibility of movement necessary for mucking out and grooming. Braces at that time had no elastic as rubber was expensive, they were made of cotton with no 'give' whatsoever and so soldiers commonly allowed the braces to flop down from the waist so that they could bend over freely. For trousers that fitted loosely (due to the high waist) this meant that they tended to slip down and at first soldiers cinched them in with leather belts. Later on the regimental saddlers began to make belts from the same, plain canvas or wool strapping used for the horses Surcingle and utilising the same double leather strap and buckle arrangement for security (if one strap broke the other would hold and prevent the saddle from coming unseated). One particular feature of these early stable belts was a sewn on (or in) pocket, secured by a stud or clip, within which loose change could be kept, or a pocket watch, as there were no pockets in the breeches. As you might imagine these became very popular as the pocket was useful and the extra breadth afforded by the canvas strapping made them very comfortable. Around about the turn of the 20th century it began to be popular for officers to wear neckties in regimental colours both for sport and less formal, country dress. This habit probably began with the Queens Household troops and Line Cavalry, but quickly spread throughout the Army and it appears as if this use of regimental colours spread to the canvas or wool strapping used to make stable belts. For this reason the stable belts invariably followed the same colour scheme (but not always the same pattern arrangement) of regimental neck ties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 28 December , 2010 Share Posted 28 December , 2010 The stable belt was worn in such a way that the little pocket was at the front. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 29 December , 2010 Share Posted 29 December , 2010 As well as stable duties the belt was often used for physical training to hold the trousers up without restricting the upper body in the way that the issue braces did. It is common to see soldiers in relaxed pose wearing them when tunics are off and they are in shirt sleeves and/or issue cardigans behind the lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 29 December , 2010 Share Posted 29 December , 2010 The term "Hate Belt" is, I believe, attritibutable to eBay. The things were called a variety of names, all probably about 90% bogus for the unwary but gulliable buyer. 1. Hate belt 2. Souvenir belt 3. Gravediggers belt and a variety of other names. Make your own. Find a suitable piece of leather or cloth, put some of your bogus badges, buttons, STs etc on it. Bury it in the backyard for six months (Preferably where wet) disinteer, and sell on eBay for (after proclaiming it to be from an "estate sale") for bazillions of dollars. Now, there are some for sale that are authentic. I bought one which was US made, (More than likely post-war) featuring a collection of WWI buttons, mostly German but some US, knowing full well what I was doing. Some of the buttons were worth the price and I got a nice German belt in the process. Just know the provenance before you empty your wallet. "Be careful out there!" Doc B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 29 December , 2010 Share Posted 29 December , 2010 This is the only one in my collection it has lost a couple of badges but otherwise I am sure its not a recent put together. Mark http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=154998 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 29 December , 2010 Share Posted 29 December , 2010 The term "Hate Belt" is, I believe, attritibutable to eBay. Doc B ALL, As much as I dislike EBay at times (usually when I loose) Calling these things hate belts was around long before Ebay was around. Not sure at all what the provenance is for the term but like Wainfleet I usually call these Souvenir belts. Pugaree_ I would not add anything to it or change anything--Keeping just as is is the best thing to do IMHO. Of course in the end you own it so its up to you. The actual belt is a commercially available belt I usually call a "Money Belt" although you'd think it would have more pockets. These were not issue at the time. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 December , 2010 Share Posted 30 December , 2010 ALL, As much as I dislike EBay at times (usually when I loose) Calling these things hate belts was around long before Ebay was around. Not sure at all what the provenance is for the term but like Wainfleet I usually call these Souvenir belts. Pugaree_ I would not add anything to it or change anything--Keeping just as is is the best thing to do IMHO. Of course in the end you own it so its up to you. The actual belt is a commercially available belt I usually call a "Money Belt" although you'd think it would have more pockets. These were not issue at the time. Joe Sweeney It's not a 'money belt' per se, it is a 'stable belt' and although never on issue (until very recently and even then not at public expense), it was widely available via unit saddlers and harness makers and was used in several different orders of dress in those units with horses (pretty much all). You can learn more about its history and origins here: http://www.stablebelts.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Hauraki KIA KAHA Posted 30 December , 2010 Share Posted 30 December , 2010 From memory Military horses troopers Surcingle's as a pattern have always been made of "leather, not cotton" The pattern girth straps for the "pack horse" equipment, made of a wool or cotton with leather reinforcing to the buckles and strap are more similar with the stable belt... The second would be the troopers girth with its double buckles, but again this has always been made of leather...... Regards Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 30 December , 2010 Share Posted 30 December , 2010 Found on Ebay: WW1 HATE BELT HAT PIN BADGE SNIPER HISTORICIAL WAR FIND - eBay (item 390275259850 end time Jan-02-11 19:32:45 PST) WW1 Canadian Web Belt Trench Art With Brass Titles & CB - eBay (item 370462784500 end time Jan-01-11 19:02:28 PST) WWI Leather Belt TRENCH ART Indian Head Penny COINS - eBay (item 130467448768 end time Jan-19-11 02:19:21 PST) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 30 December , 2010 Share Posted 30 December , 2010 It's not a 'money belt' per se, it is a 'stable belt' and although never on issue (until very recently and even then not in all units), it was widely available via unit saddlers and harness makers and was used in several different orders of dress in those units with horses (pretty much all). You can learn more about its history and origins here: http://www.stablebelts.co.uk/ It's pretty much a question of paying your money and taking your choice as to whether you call them money or stable belts, and then depending on source. If arising from your saddler, then stable belt would seem to be the case. However, many of the commercial examples I have seen refer to them as money belts. For example, the 1915 Illustrated Price List of Military Accoutrements of War Office contractor D.Power & Sons includes 16 belts largely of the type: nine of which are styled 'money', and none 'stable'. Interestingly, the Web site cited implies that that these only spread to arms beyond cavalry after WW2, which is plainly not the case. Best wishes, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 30 December , 2010 Share Posted 30 December , 2010 The money belt in my collection-the 'grenade' ring I think is a personal addition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 December , 2010 Share Posted 30 December , 2010 It's pretty much a question of paying your money and taking your choice as to whether you call them money or stable belts, and then depending on source. If arising from your saddler, then stable belt would seem to be the case. However, many of the commercial examples I have seen refer to them as money belts. For example, the 1915 Illustrated Price List of Military Accoutrements of War Office contractor D.Power & Sons includes 16 belts largely of the type: nine of which are styled 'money', and none 'stable'. Interestingly, the Web site cited implies that that these only spread to arms beyond cavalry after WW2, which is plainly not the case. Best wishes, GT. Thank you GT, fascinating stuff and makes me wonder if the term 'stable belt' originated after WW1, or was perhaps coined within the army and outside the commercial sphere, it clearly requires further research. The terminology seems to have come about from the belts worn at "stables parades" within the RA, ASC and cavalry, to mention just the obvious. Interestingly the RN and Sea Cadet Corps issued a navy blue canvas money belt right through until the demise of bell bottom trousers, but in the army it has certainly been known as a stable belt for a long time, although since when remains to be established. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Blonde Posted 30 December , 2010 Share Posted 30 December , 2010 Is the EA - Irish Army - Army(ee?) Eirean? No such badge exists for the Irish Army. Badges from 1922 for the Irish Republic have "F.F." for "Fianna Faìl" inside a Sword belt with the words Oglaidh na hEirean" (Soldiers of Ireland) in Irish Gaelic script and outside of this a Sunburst motif. I add a picture of my old cap badge from my service in the Irish Army for reference. Connaught Ranger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Hauraki KIA KAHA Posted 30 December , 2010 Share Posted 30 December , 2010 Yes the information on the website is not correct Military horses troopers Surcingle's as a pattern have always been made of "leather, not cotton or wool". I have a nice example named to 59280 Jack Parminter N.Z.M.G.C that he hand decorated on the inside with his details, it is covered in badges with pocket and a chain and snap hook for a fob watch. Regards Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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