John Edwin Hodgson- Rifle Brigade / 2nd Kings Rifle Corps

[lukerwhite]

John Edwin Hodgson -

Rifle Brigade S/16859

2^nd Battalion Kings Royal Rifle Corps A/203032

Birth Place: St Lukes, Middlesex (12 Sep 1890)

Occupation: Tram Conductor

Residence: Finsbury Barracks

Next of Kin:

Attestation Location: Islington, Middlesex

Attestation date:

Address on Attestation:

Height:

Chest:

Weight:

Physical Development:

Rank: Private

Rifleman

Timeline:

? Enlistment at Islington, Middlesex

? Aldershot

10 Jul 1917 Died of wounds

Medals:

Victory War Medal (Roll: 17/101B16 Page: 2085)

British War Medal (Roll: 17/101B16 Page: 2085)

UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919

about John Edwin Hodgson

Name:

John Edwin Hodgson

Birth Place:

St. Luke's, Middlesex.

Residence:

Finsbury Barracks

Death Date:

10 Jul 1917

Enlistment Location:

Islington, Middlesex.

Rank:

Rifleman

Regiment:

King's Royal Rifle Corp

Battalion:

2nd Battalion.

Number:

A/203032

Type of Casualty:

Died of wounds

Theatre of War:

[/size]States Aldershot but is actually France

Comments:

Formerly S/16859, Rifle Brig.

I do not know much of John Edwin Hodgson, can anyone tel me how he died? What battles he was in? His movements?

[sotonmate]

Luke

He is remembered on Nieuwpoort memorial as he has no known grave. Here,from CWGC,a note on the matter:

http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_detail...2014&mode=1

Sotonmate

[Stebie9173]

He was killed at the Battle of the Dunes - in the Dunes at Nieuport when the Germans launched Operation Strandfest.

See:

http://www.1914-1918.net/hush.htm

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=88321&hl=

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=41843&hl=

If you use the forum search function using the word dunes, and my Forum name i.e. Stebie9173 as the member name, then a lot of previous topics should show up.

Steve.

[MBrockway]

I'm still chasing Frederick Morris WALKER, 16 RB, for you from your other Post!

Are these riflemen relations of yours? What's your interest in them?

Cheers,

Mark

[lukerwhite]

Yes, they are all either direct descendents to me or my partner or their siblings.

Thanks for your help

I'm still chasing Frederick Morris WALKER, 16 RB, for you from your other Post!

Are these riflemen relations of yours? What's your interest in them?

Cheers,

Mark

[lukerwhite]

Thanks Stebie,

Really good stuff. Will take me a while to have a look through all this. You and MBrockway were a great help to a person on the link you sent me. Thanks

He was killed at the Battle of the Dunes - in the Dunes at Nieuport when the Germans launched Operation Strandfest.

See:

http://www.1914-1918.net/hush.htm

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=88321&hl=

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=41843&hl=

If you search using the word dunes, and my Forum name i.e. Stebie9173 as the member name, then a lot of previous topics should show up.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Incidentally J E Hodgson appears on the list of Missing mentioned on the linked topic.

Presumably someone was with him long enough to confirm him dying of wounds whilst in the Dunes. Had he been taken POW and then died he would have been given a burial by the Germans.

Steve.

[lukerwhite]

Fantastic!

I was going to ask you if he would have been metioned in those lists but according to the CWGC he had died in June and these were published in Aug (correct me if im wrong) so stopped my reply to you half way through! Great spot! Thanks a lot.

Which list was this one? Is it available to view publicly is it something you have personally?

Incidentally J E Hodgson appears on the list of Missing mentioned on the linked topic.

Presumably someone was with him long enough to confirm him dying of wounds whilst in the Dunes. Had he been taken POW and then died he would have been given a burial by the Germans.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

It always took a while (usually four to six weeks) for the casualty lists to be published after the woundings. The dates on the lists are the publishing dates, rather than wounding dates.

The lists are part of the official casualty lists that are held on microfilm at the British Library Newspaper section at Colindale. I generally only have (some of) the Northamptonshire Regiment ones, but I recognised the 2nd KRRC list as a counterpart to the 1st Northamptons who were also at the Dunes, and knew Mark would want a copy.

If you send me a Personal Message (PM) with your e-mail address I can forward the scanned copy of the list to you.

Steve.

[lukerwhite]

That would be great Stebie,

My email is lukerwhite@hotmail.co.uk

Many thanks, it is a real find, you have made my day!

It always took a while (usually four to six weeks) for the casualty lists to be published after the woundings. The dates on the lists are the publishing dates, rather than wounding dates.

The lists are part of the official casualty lists that are held on microfilm at the British Library Newspaper section at Colindale. I generally only have (some of) the Northamptonshire Regiment ones, but I recognised the 2nd KRRC list as a counterpart to the 1st Northamptons who were also at the Dunes, and knew Mark would want a copy.

If you send me a Personal Message (PM) with your e-mail address I can forward the scanned copy of the list to you.

Steve.

[MBrockway]

Luke,

Just switched back from sorting out Frederick Walker and really there's nothing much I can add (except another thank you to Steve for those KRRC Casualty Lists!)

I've forwarded you the article from the KRRC Chronicle on the Battle of the Dunes as well as the relevant pages from the 2/KRRC Battalion War Record from the same.

As a taster here's the map anyway ;-) ...

Finally, here's a big welcome to the Rifles Family here on the Forum

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Medals:

Victory War Medal (Roll: 17/101B16 Page: 2085)

British War Medal (Roll: 17/101B16 Page: 2085)

Theatre of War: Aldershot

Comments: Formerly S/16859, Rifle Brig.

Luke,

A few corrections ...

The Medal Roll references are actually M/101B16, Page 2085. If you look up this roll, it is highly likely to tell you his original Rifle Brigade battalion.

You can ignore the Theatre of War: Aldershot - that's a mistake on Ancestry included on nearly every SDGW entry !!

A Rifle Brigade Service Number of S/16859 points to an enlistment in late 1915 to early 1916.

HTH

Cheers,

Mark

[Verrico2009]

"Aldershot" in this case almost invariably means France & Flanders. A tip - once you've got the serviceman showing in the SDGW section of Ancestry, click on the "Military" tab at the side and it'll drop down to reveal the different categories. Choose "Casualties" and it gives a slightly different screen, in this case:-

NAME: John Edwin Hodgson

BIRTH: St. Luke's, Middx.

DEATH: 10 Jul 1917 - France & Flanders

MILITARY: Islington, Middx.

It does beg the question why they can't get it to do this in their SDGW view. Of course, it's a much wider designation but at least it's usually backed up by CWGC (as long as Ancestry haven't created their own classic typos in the process..).

[lukerwhite]

Luke,

A few corrections ...

The Medal Roll references are actually M/101B16, Page 2085. If you look up this roll, it is highly likely to tell you his original Rifle Brigade battalion.

You can ignore the Theatre of War: Aldershot - that's a mistake on Ancestry included on nearly every SDGW entry !!

A Rifle Brigade Service Number of S/16859 points to an enlistment in late 1915 to early 1916.

HTH

Cheers,

Mark

Thanks to you and Stebie for your help. I am genuinely over the moon with the info you have gathered for me. Could never have done it by myself....and that is an understatement!

I spent my hour lunch time reading the info you gave me today. The detail of the Battle of Bain is amazing. I wonder how they managed to gather it all in such detail? From peoples war diaries or is there a touch of poetic liscense? Some of it reads like a boys story, quite exciting especially the bit about Lt Col Abadie DSO shooting five germans befor he too fell, but then you have to remember that this is a true a representation of what actually happened as you are going to get and it is a very sobering thought. So sad so many lost their lives, my great grandmothers brother John included. It was a bit of a disaster by all accounts.

The thought of John being thrust into this "hold your position at all costs" battle having most likely come straight out of

training at Aldershot is awful. With poor sandy trenches to take cover in, under emmense bombardment, and with jammed up rifles and no back up as promised it is a wonder any of them survived. I wonder if it was a bullet, shrapnel from a bomb, entombment, or when the german marines came over that killed him, or if he survived long enough to be taken POW. Eventually he perished like so many before him. One day i would like to visit the Yser river and pay my respects.

The map was very useful. The POW escspee that had seven attempts before finaly making it home only to die of Pneumonia was a real kick in the teeth! I thought the story of how Abaddies final orders on paper came to be washed up was great. To think we only have it because of that orderly tryhis best to save them!

Cant thank you enough.

Luke

[KevinBattle]

I think the Battle of the Dunes was on the YSER River near Nieuport Bains.

Seems like you're running too fast and not taking time to catch your breath!

[lukerwhite]

I think the Battle of the Dunes was on the YSER River near Nieuport Bains.

Seems like you're running too fast and not taking time to catch your breath!

Slip of the tongue or should i say finger! Have changed the river name on my post so as not to cause confusion!

[lukerwhite]

I was sent this picture KRRC memorial (taken from http://ww1battlefields.co.uk/ ) A good site.

[lukerwhite]

Found a nice pic of the KRRC badge too

[lukerwhite]

Kings Royal Rifle Corps 2nd Battalion

August 1914 : at Blackdown. Part of 2nd Brigade in 1st Division.

13 August 1914 : landed at Le Havre.

1st Division

1916

The Battle of Albert*

The Battle of Bazentin*

The Battle of Pozieres*

The Battle of Flers-Courcelette*

The Battle of Morval*

The battles marked * are phases of the Battles of the Somme 1916

1917

The German retreat to the Hindenburg Line

The Division was warned to prepare for an operation along the Belgian coast (Operation Hush) in Summer 1917 and several mobile units were attached in readiness. The operation was cancelled when the initial assaults in the Third Battle of Ypres failed to progress as expected.

The Second Battle of Passchendaele**

The battles marked ** are phases of the Third Battle of Ypres

Can anyone help me out with more details or point out anything i have wrong. Is there any way i can track his time in the rifle brigade on the long long trail like I have above for the 2nd Batt KRRC?

[lukerwhite]

Hi all,

I have managed to get John Edwin Hodgson Medal Roll for the Victory & British medal. it states the following:

On becoming non-effective: A203032 // Rank: Pvt. // Name: John E Hodgson // Unit previously served with. Rgtl no. and rank in same on entry of war: 9th.Bn.Rif.Brig. S/16859 Pte.

2nd Bn,K.R.Rif.C. A/203038

No other info on the roll apart from a few squiggles.

Did he go from the 2nd to the 9th? Can anyone tell me any mor about him from this?

Kind regards

Luke

[Stebie9173]

Luke,

I've just ben having a look at the possibility that John Hodgson transferred to France in an organised Draft of men with sequential numbers. Two examples of men with nearby KRRC numbers are:

Philip L Bambury

Enlisted under the Derby Scheme 10-12-1915

Called up 15-4-1916

Posted to 6th Reserve Battalion Rifle Brigade 20-4-1916, No. S/16910

Posted to ??? Battalion Rifle Brigade 17-7-1916

To France 17-7-1916

Transferred to 2nd Battalion King's Royal Rifle Corps 9-9-1916, No. A/203029

Charles John Pitcher

Enlisted under the Derby Scheme 5-2-1916

Called up 15-4-1916

Posted to 6th Reserve Battalion Rifle Brigade 20-4-1916, S/16980

To France, 16-7-1916, arrived at 47th Infantry Base Depot and posted to 9th Battalion Rifle Brigade (for records purposes)

Attached to 2nd Battalion King's Royal Rifle Corps, 25-7-1916

Transferred to 2nd Battalion King's Royal Rifle Corps 9-9-1916, A/203036

Although the two records are fragmentary, they do seem to suggest the forming of a pattern, that may well be applicable to John Hodgson.

EDIT:

The same dates and movements apply to S/16890 and A/203033 Robert Wilson McAllister.

Steve.

[MBrockway]

QUOTE (MBrockway @ Mar 19 2010, 12:42 AM)

You can ignore the Theatre of War: Aldershot - that's a mistake on Ancestry included on nearly every SDGW entry !!

A Rifle Brigade Service Number of S/16859 points to an enlistment in late 1915 to early 1916.

Cheers,

Mark

The thought of John being thrust into this "hold your position at all costs" battle having most likely come straight out of

training at Aldershot is awful.

Luke

Luke,

Many thanks for the scan of John's medal roll entry. Sorry I've been slow getting back to you.

John's original enlistment was into 9th Rifle Brigade with Service Number S/16859.

Sometime between then and July 1917, he was transferred to 2/KRRC with whom he Fell at Nieuport at the Battle of the Dunes.

You can ignore "Aldershot" - this is a mistake on Ancestry arising from the way they originally loaded all the SDGW data. If you repeat your search, you'll now see Ancestry have corrected this to read "Western European Theatre".

The next part of the puzzle is piecing together John's military career.

His S/16859 Rifle Brigade Service Number points to an enlistment in late 1915 to early 1916. In other words he is almost certain to be a Derby Scheme man.

Read these links for excellent info on how this worked:

The Derby, or Group Scheme on the Mother SIte

Carolyn Morrissey's brilliant Derby Scheme page

When he originally attested under the Derby Scheme, he would have been allocated to a regiment and sometimes given a Service Number (SN) and a battalion for administrative purposes. Technically he was now a member of the Army Reserve. The men still had a degree of choice about which regiment they enlisted into.

There is some conflicting evidence as to whether the SNs were allocated when the men originally attested, or when they were called up. Andy and I have been looking into this for a while and generally it seems to point to the latter. KRRC and RB SNs are linked to battalions. The SNs seem to come in blocks around Call-up Groups and the men would probably not have been sorted into the battalions at their original attestations, but rather as a backroom admin task shortly afterwards. On the other hand the card taken away from attestation by the man (Army Form W3194) had a space for Number as well as Group Number, though this may have been yet another number - his Recruiting Office ID Number! Thus the jury's still out on this.

Steve's three men above (Bambury, Pitcher and McAllister) seem to follow the latter line. They have a spread of attestation dates from 10 Dec 1915 to 05 Feb 1916, yet their SNs are only 70 digits apart. Since they were called up on the same day (15 Apr 1916) this strongly suggests they got their SNs as part of the call-up process. It also looks like they were in the Married Men aged 25-32 Group.

I'll have a good look at those mens' service records when I have a stable working computer - LOL!

[incidentally Bambury's service record on Ancestry has several key pages of the service record of Charles CHURCH, S/16902, then A/203030, misfiled into it. Church followed the same track from 6/RB into 9/RB then 2/KRRC as these other men, was wounded and captured at Nieuport on 10 Jul 1917 and ended up under the control of Limburg POW Camp - see the active Topics on John Hardcastle and Limburg POW Camp where Pal Liz from Eastbourne has been very energetically teasing out a great deal of excellent info on that]

In reality, John would have gone back home to await his Call-up - probably in early April 1916 - when he would have reported and would be sent to a training battalion. For the two rifles regiments, this appears to have usually been one of the rifles Reserve battalions still attached to the regiments rather than the central Training Reserve battalions shared across the whole Army - perhaps because rifles drill was so different from the infantry of the line regiments??

6/RB is the most likely option. All the nearby men with surviving service records were there. From memory 6/RB was at Sheerness in the Medway area at the time, but Andy can perhaps confirm. The KRRC equivalent battalions (5 and 6 KRRC) were close by, so in all likelihood some of the training of these riflemen would have been organised jointly by RB and KRRC. There are several posts elsewhere on the Forum that give a lot more info on these rifles Reserve btns - try searching on 'Sheerness' and 'Rifle'.

John then most likely spent the summer training with 6/RB before being posted to France in July 1916.

There he would have joined one of the Infantry Base Depots where he would have had some further training before being posted to the front line.

As part of the Embarkation process, the men were usually allocated to a Service battalion even though they would remain at an IBD for a few weeks more. In this case, this block of men appear to have been earmarked for 9th Rifle Brigade.

This is backed up by those men who have extant service records as well as the British War & Victory Medal roll where their first btn listed is 9/RB - i.e. the btn they belonged to when they touched foreign soil.

While still at the IBD though, the need for replacement drafts by 2/KRRC must have been deemed greater than that of 9/RB and a large block of men stil in the IBD's training 'pipeline' were transferred from 9/RB to 2/KRRC at, or around, 09 Sep 1916. Both battalions took heavy losses during the Somme battles, so it must have been a fine line!

If you look at the page of the BW&VM medal roll that you've sent me, you'll see all seven men were originally "in" 9/RB and all seven men were transferred to 2/KKRC with A/2030xx KRRC Service Numbers. One of the seven (Robert McALLISTER, S/16890, then A/203033) was then transferred from 2/KKRC to 17/KRRC.

The other typical cause of a transfer of battalions was men returning to active service after recovering from wounds. These A/2030xx are in a contiguous block and the mens' earlier RB numbers are also very close (bar S/9010 Rfn BIRKETT). That makes it extremely unlikely that these men were returning from wounds.

In addition the KRRC's A/2xxxxx SN range (and the RB's B/2xxxxx equivalent) was notionally used for men posted from Training Reserve battalions.

These ranges contain a large number of contiguous blocks of men who appear to have transferred not just from the sister rifle regiment, but also from other regiments. Large numbers of these are transfers from regiments with a traditional connection to the KRRC and the RB such as the various London Regiment battalions, but they also include men from completely unconnected regiments such as the Royal Fusiliers and the Essex, Cambridgeshire and Hertfordshire Regiments.

There are also a large number who appear to be men re-graded and compulsorily transferred under AO 204/16 ("for the benefit of the Service") from support arms such as the ASC, the AOC and the Army Pay Corps. There's a Topic elsewhere on the Forum about an ASC master baker who fell into this category (search on "Petty" "A/204642").

A while ago Andy and I spotted these patterns that Steve mentions above, and we've been researching them for a year or so.

At present our working hypothesis is that (aside from the ASC etc corps men) they are blocks of men who were allocated to a Service battalion on arriving at one or more IBDs from initial training in Blighty. They then remained at their IBD to complete their combat training. During that short period they were then re-allocated to a different battalion (and sometimes even a different regiment) due to the varying losses suffered by the Service btns in the front line. - i.e. exactly what appears to have happened to John Hodgson and these other men.

Based on a lead from Charles Messenger, we've been trying to correlate whether the transfers are all originating from one specific IBD that might have been managing drafts for a group of regiments that included the KRRC, the RB and the Londons alongside some more surprising non-rifles regiments.

Coming back to John Hodgson, he probably joined 2/KRRC in mid September 1916, although there is a mention in the 1916 KRRC Chronicle of a draft of 22 ORs arriving on 06 Oct 1916 along with a number of officers from other regiments "sent to us on account of the heavy casualties which we had sustained and which could not at the time be replaced by our own officers" presumably this also applied to the ORs.

He most likely missed their heavy actions at High Wood but could possibly have been with them in time for their bombing attack on the Flers Line on 25 Sep 1916. 2/KRRC then were out of the line rebuilding until mid November 1916 when they took over the same trenches they had captured at Flers in September. They remained in the Somme sector without taking part in any major actions until early summer 1917 when they made their way northwards to the Nieuport area in July 1917.

So, to summarise, John's outline career was ...

• attested under the Derby Scheme in late 1915/early 1916
• called up early April 1916
• posted to 6/RB at Sheerness for training
• arrived at IBD in France mid July 1916 and posted to 9/RB
• continued training at the IBD on the Frech coast
• transferred to 2/KRRC while still at the IBD
• joined 2/KRRC in mid Sep to Oct 1916 in the Somme sector
• Wounded in Action, later Died, at Nieuport on 10 Jul 1917, his body never located and appears not to have been captured

He almost certainly did not see Active Service with the Rifle Brigade.

HTH

Cheers,

Mark

[lukerwhite]

Wow! When I look at the help I have received from this thread it is astonishing! A big THANKS to everyone who has helped me out.

The only thing that could top it off now would be a picture of him from a newspaper perhaps. I have been lucky before! Is there any one who may be able to help me out on this?

Kind regards

Luke